Live with Cathy Edwards! (EP.30)

Last Updated

April 30, 2020

Work. Shouldn't. Suck. LIVE: The Morning(ish) Show with special guest Cathy Edwards. [Live show recorded: April 27, 2020.]

Guest: Cathy Edwards

Co-Hosts: Tim Cynova & Lauren Ruffin

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Guest

CATHY EDWARDS is Executive Director of the New England Foundation for the Arts (NEFA), where she has served since January, 2015. She believes art has a unique role to play in engaging people and communities, and is committed to building opportunity and equity in the creative sector. NEFA invests in artists and communities and fosters equitable access to the arts, enriching the cultural landscape in New England and the nation. The organization administers an array of grant-making programs and professional services, and conducts research into New England’s creative economy. NEFA works in partnership with the National Endowment for the Arts, the nation’s Regional Arts Organizations, and New England’s six state arts agencies, in addition to private philanthropy, to accomplish its work, with an annual budget of over $8 million. Cathy previously served as director of programming at the International Festival of Arts & Ideas in New Haven, CT; as the artistic director at both the Time-Based Art Festival at PICA in Portland, OR and Dance Theater Workshop in New York City; and as co-director of Movement Research in New York City. She has served on the board of directors of the Association of Performing Arts Professionals, as chair of the board of directors of Movement Research, and as vice-chair of the board of directors of the National Performance Network. She holds a BA from Yale College. Cathy has two children, both young adults, is married to an activist law professor, and lives in both New Haven, CT and Cambridge, MA.

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Transcript

Tim Cynova:

Hi, I'm Tim Cynova and welcome to Work. Shouldn't. Suck. LIVE: The Morning(ish) Show. On today's episode, Lauren Ruffin and I are joined by Cathy Edwards. Cathy currently serves as the executive director of the New England Foundation for the Arts, or NEFA for short, found online at NEFA.org. NEFA invest in artists and communities, and fosters equitable access to the arts, enriching the cultural landscape in New England and beyond. Cathy previously served as the Director of Programming at the International Festival of Arts and Ideas, as the Artistic Director at both the Time-Based Art Festival at PICA in Portland, Oregon, and Dance Theater Workshop in New York City. And, as co-director of Movement Research in New York City. She has served on the board of directors of the Association of Performing Arts Professionals, as Chair of the board of Movement Research, and as Vice Chair of the board of the National Performance Network. We're so excited for her to join us today. Without further ado, Cathy, welcome to the show.

Cathy Edwards:

Thank you. It's great to see you both.

Lauren Ruffin:

Same. I realized this live stream is a steady parade of people that I love talking to, but I don't ever pick up the phone and call. Totally my fault, but it's really good to see you. Our first question is, how are you doing and how is the NEFA community doing right now? What are you hearing and seeing?

Cathy Edwards:

I'm doing okay. I lead a kind of itinerant life during my normal pre-COVID weeks. I vote and pay my taxes and my car is registered in New Haven, Connecticut, but I work in Boston so I spend a lot of time back and forth. And actually, it's been great to be living with my husband again, full time in New Haven. That was an unexpected upside. My two young adult kids came home. It's been great to have two young 20 somethings in the house. And so on a personal level, my day-to-day is fine.

Cathy Edwards:

I think all of us at NEFA, the NEFA team and staff, were holding it together. I really feel for my colleagues who've got little kids at home and are trying to work some crazy miracle of staying sane, while homeschooling and also trying to do some work and it's insane for them and there are constituents, like Diors, artists, folks who run cultural organizations and venues. Life sucks for them right now, things when it's really bleak. Many of my peer executive directors in the nonprofit sector or laying staff off, furloughing people figuring out, especially in live arts, are we going to reopen in September or is it going to be January? It's just really hard and artists and creative workers are suffering so massively. So things are not great in that regard.

Lauren Ruffin:

Yeah. Yeah. So Tim gave you an intro, I mean a bio, but how are you thinking about yourself and your work right now?

Cathy Edwards:

Oh God. As you guys both know, because I've had the opportunity periodically to connect with you over the years, which has always been so great, I think a lot about how I can actually be of any service as a leader. And so this is for sure testing any of my nascent growing leadership skills. It's kind of like, "Wow, I think I realize I am a linear and logical person and leader, and this is the most complex time possible." Actually, to lead in a complex time, I think you really need to have so many sensory abilities and you need to, especially if you're a linear person, I need to double down on my listening skills all the time, every single day because there's so much that isn't being said directly, can't be said directly because the situation is so uncertain right now. But all of those things need to inform setting a direction and a human focused kind of approach to everything we do, as much as budgets and scenario plans and all of the other tools that we have as leaders to project into the future. So yeah, complex.

Lauren Ruffin:

Yeah, I think that's really interesting. We haven't talked about that yet on the live stream, the sort of listening component. And then when you couple that with so much about listening is actually body language, and how much of that's lost over screens right now, I think that's a really, really great point.

Tim Cynova:

Yeah. I teach a class on leadership and team building at the new school and in the first class we run down a list of traits that most high performing teams demonstrate, and it's trust, psychological safety, the ability to listen and then social sensitivity, picking up on cues. And without any foresight into everything going online, and I think it was the third session we went all online, we did it on Zoom and talked about the difference between what you can pick up from the upper third of everyone. When you lean into the screen, you're not getting any closer to the person. You can't tell if someone's really relaxed in their chair or paying attention really or looking someplace else and the different skills that we need to develop, increasingly, in this world where this is the only way we're seeing people, and if you're writing it can be read differently. You could resend an email or you could resent an and the things there. But I like you said, "Tim gave you a bio." I've just pulled together a random bio for Cathy. Everything was based in Cathy's real bio based.

Lauren Ruffin:

It was totally based in fact, it was not fake news. Cathy really did all of those things.

Tim Cynova:

Yeah.

Cathy Edwards:

Yeah.

Tim Cynova:

You can leave it like, "Tim gave you a bio."

Lauren Ruffin:

Tim gave you a bio. It's Monday, okay, cut me a break. Day five million and 72 of this dang pandemic.

Cathy Edwards:

One think I want to add to what you were just saying because it seemed really resonant to me is I do think the ways that we work creatively, we really need to lean into those right now. It's the deep listening, but it's also being creative, working in collaboration and in solidarity to figure something out that is meaningful right now. And actually, I do think at NEFA and for a lot of teams probably, but maybe I'll just say at NEFA and with me being in the same space to be collaborative and creative and really service as many voices as possible is something that I've realized over my five years that NEFA helps us to do our best work. So it's definitely, yeah, it's a big lift to try and stay true to the values and the vision of the organization, but actually change some of the strategies because the world has changed and the people that we are supposed to be serving have some shifting needs right now that we need to be responsive to.

Tim Cynova:

Well, that goes right into one of the things that's on your website. NEFA's values include equity, diversity, inclusion and accessibility. There's a great section on the NEFA website about COVID resources and there's a subsection in that social justice and inclusion resources, including silent rhythms, inclusive distancing, a guide for arts and culture sector on the inclusion and accessibility of persons with disabilities during COVID-19. I'm wondering, can you talk a little bit more about this journey that the organization's been on, how you were thinking about your values and this time and maybe what comes from this, that might be different or similar to what you were thinking three months ago?

Cathy Edwards:

Sure. I think for us at NEFA, when we basically kind of went through our last strategic planning process, which we do periodically, it coincided with the awareness that if we didn't really articulate what we meant when we talked about equity or diversity or inclusion or accessibility, we were holding ourselves back and we were not being accountable to a concrete vision of what we wanted our future to be and how we wanted to develop our skill sets and our strategies as an organization. So one of the most powerful things we did was kind of define some terms for ourselves. And really for the first time ever, I think, created a group of six core values the organization. And those have really served us as our bedrock aspirations, especially when we go through hard times and this is the hardest. So I think imagining forward to a future post COVID-19, I think about who are the organizations, who are the individual leaders in our sector, who are the ones that we just can't do without because they're so in tune with community needs and aspirations and humanity and art is their vehicle.

Cathy Edwards:

Art is the way that they do that. But fundamentally they're making our communities better and our places better and they're leading by living values of equity and inclusion. So even as we figure out where we are in the temporary normal of this disruptive period, really lifting up the leaders who we have been relying on at NEFA to articulate a course for us that is about a more just and equitable world. We have to be in that process with them as we think about how we take care of our employees and how we recruit for our board during this pandemic. We have to think about that when we approach loosening restrictions on grants and trusting and listening to our grantees when they tell us what they need. So it's the key. I think it's the key towards exiting this period of COVID-19 with any sense of setting the table for greater participation and inclusion in the arts.

Cathy Edwards:

And I love the work, especially in public art around like, well, what does it mean to engage in public space? Who set the terms for that? Because right now, we've got a lot of folks who are kind of experiencing like a second reckoning of almost a Trump administration coming into power. It's just a sense of like who belongs? Who is this country for? Who is our public space for? So really making sure that we're centering those concerns and those voices as well as envisioning strategies for when we come out of this that folks who have been historically underrepresented and marginalized.

Lauren Ruffin:

Yeah. Tim, you were going to say something?

Tim Cynova:

Yeah, no, I was sitting with that response, that was really powerful, Cathy, really thought provoking. We've had conversations over the past month or year or so about physical space as it relates to the workplace, and we're talking a little bit ago about NEFA is in this process of looking at way of different office workspace might look like, but you've not gotten there before everything shut down. So I'm curious how you're now thinking about what is a workplace making any adjustments to the plans?

Cathy Edwards:

This is a really tough one. We, I think, are moving forward. We've got a space identified. We actually found a fantastic space. We are in a real estate market in Boston that is absolutely crushing and punishing and we were able to negotiate access to a space that needs to be used for a kind of cultural or startup organizations and as a result, we'll have access to pretty much, I think, half of market rate class A space.

Lauren Ruffin:

Yes.

Cathy Edwards:

So that's the main thing.

Lauren Ruffin:

Scream that from the rooftops. We can hear you in Boston from New Haven on that.

Cathy Edwards:

I do not want to let that go. And on the other hand, our board chair did say to me more than once, "Cathy, I hope we're not doing all this work and spending all these capital build-out dollars for a space nobody's going to want to use because you're all used to working remotely." And I had said that to our team at NEFA, our space force who's really organizing this whole thing a few times.

Tim Cynova:

Space force is the name. That is amazing.

Cathy Edwards:

We have a space force, and space force team of Doug and Abby and Steven are amazing and they have just kind of talked me down each time like, "No, we're still going to need a space. It might not be used exactly the way we had envisioned using it, but we're still going to need a space." So I keep repeating that to myself and thinking, I have to trust my colleagues and they say we're going to need a space, we're going to need a space. On the other hand, what I really think is that all these issues of flexibility in the work force and in the workplace. I remember when I started at NEFA, or before I started, I said to the chair of the search committee that hired me, "What if I work a couple days a week remote from Connecticut?" And he was like, "No, that's not fair." If you want the job, you've got to show up in Boston. I was like, "Okay." So there you go.

Cathy Edwards:

That's the impact of sort of reality, but it's one that's kind of been the de facto reality for everyone. We've got a very flexible workplace. If you need to work a day a week from home, if you can, if something comes up, no problem, just do it, no stress, just tell whoever you're going to talk to that day that it's going to be by the phone. And over the past five years, two of our employees have actually moved out of State and we let them do that and they've worked remotely and it's all been fine. But now I feel like, "Oh, this just happened and everybody's making it work." I don't know. It's hard for me to imagine us ever really going back to the kind of mandated five days a week in the office sort of situation that we generically were a part of because I'm even thinking about all the commuting time.

Cathy Edwards:

Boston's a tough city to get around in. Now 24 people are not spending up to an hour or two a day, getting back and forth. And then I think about the safety of our people. What's it going to be like? When is the T and public transportation going to be safe for people to travel on? Those are existential issues for us in the arts sector because we can't solve them. We're trying to figure out how front of house folks and box office people, arts educators can feel safe and confident being in public space. But anyway, I have a feeling that there will be even more flexibility where we work from and how we do our work in the years to come.

Tim Cynova:

What's your personal default? If you could just sketch what your personal workplace schedule would look like, are you more of like, "I need to be in the office four days a week. I can do one day remote." Or if all things were equal, you would just work offsite four or five days a week and pop in and maybe once a month?

Cathy Edwards:

That's a really good question. I've almost not allowed my own personal imagination to go there. And I think partly it is kind of like I do feel again, for my own style where I need to continually practice my deep listening and my emotional intelligence at work, being in the same place as other people really works for me. But I don't think I'm ever going to feel like I need to be in the office.

Lauren Ruffin:

Yeah.

Cathy Edwards:

Those days are gone.

Lauren Ruffin:

Yeah. Yeah. For most of my work history, I've had atrocious commutes, 90 minutes, two hours, horrible commutes around D.C. And so starting to work at Fractured Atlas, I definitely appreciated being able to work remote because I was living in D.C. and our office is in New York. We've had people who, as we slowly transitioned to being a hundred percent remote organization, who are really clear about their need to travel to an office. And I do wonder how this time is going to make people really think about time differently and that piece around commuting I think is so important, like how much productivity and energy can we unlock just without having to do two hours a day, five days a week of getting back and forth to the office. I just think that's such a great point.

Tim Cynova:

Yeah. I'm reflecting on, I think it was Mica Scalin last week, talked about how people are developing new habits. We've done this long enough now that you've gone over the 30 days or whatever, the book habit says that people develop new habits. And what's it going to look like in six months of this and as you wrestle with those questions, how valuable is my time? Do I really want a three hour commute? Like some of our team at Fractured Atlas had a three hour commute coming from the outer reaches of the boroughs into Midtown Manhattan, an hour and a half each way, and all of a sudden have that time back to them. But also, the people who like are really high performing who are like, "I need that space in that physical place with other people to really do my best work." And I'm curious how this is, I mean I hope some organizational psychologists, organizational designers are capturing this massive experiment that's happening right now to try and figure out some things when, what is it, like millions of people all of a sudden are not traveling into the office?

Lauren Ruffin:

Yeah, yeah. I think that's got to be a psychologist because there are some cities where it's definitely trauma getting around them and Boston and New York are two of those cities. Just walking when I'm in New York staying block away from Fractured Atlas's office, just getting across 8th Avenue, going past the Ghostbusters McDonald's to our office was just enough.

Cathy Edwards:

I think it occurred to me balance is a key word coming out of this. I mean balance is something we're all struggling for right now because we're working from home. I need to be pretty highly disciplined. I'm like, I have to get up every morning. I have to go for a walk before I sit down at my desk and I'm like nine to five, put on makeup or whatever. It's like I got to be in my work mode and then I've been so much more unplugged. Like at five o'clock, I get up from the computer and I don't look at it all weekend, and that was not typical before work was in my house. So then just reflecting on, oh, there's some probably some good things to learn about balance in this time, but there are so many things that I just miss so, so, so, so much. Commuting isn't one of them. But being in the same space with other people to collaborate, think creatively, to have fun, to experience art.

Lauren Ruffin:

That's a great transition into my next question because I know that you're thinking a lot about what performance art will look like, and on your website you talked about shared experiences being core to artistry. Can we talk about how are you thinking about what the future of performances will look like, and shared experiences?

Cathy Edwards:

I think in probably weeks one through three of the pandemic, I was just like, "It's going to be bad. I don't know exactly when, but we'll be back in our spaces doing our things." The longer it goes on, the more I have come to realize that there is a rewiring that's happening and that the employee and the audience safety considerations are not going to be solved any time very quickly, at least with the very hands off approach of our government right now. So it could be quite a while before we're back in space together. And people are actually doing amazing, creative things and they're really moving. And for the first three weeks of this I was totally resistant to that. I was like, "I am not going to be consuming more art online. I will read a book and all my hours looking at the Zoom, no, no more screen."

Cathy Edwards:

But I've also been amazed and moved and I feel like I'm practically going to start getting teary, but it was like just this weekend it all opened up for me and I watched some of the Met Opera Gala online. I was like, "This is amazing," to see all of these opera singers in their living rooms or by their pianos doing what they do and completely creatively opening up a new space that we would never have had access to before. I watched a live streamed concert that UMass Amherst Fine Arts Center hosted a cellist, a musician, Leyla McCalla, in her home in New Orleans with a facilitated discussion. And the sound quality wasn't very good, but I just felt like a new dimension of the humanity of artists was opening up for me. And that was beautiful. Onassis Foundation has a really great project called Onassis ENTER where they've been commissioning artists to create work within 120 hours for online. And there have been some really beautiful things there. So I'm starting to just crave that being part of what artists are thinking and how they're making.

Cathy Edwards:

So that will keep happening. But I have a lot of concern for the venues in the performing arts sector who have massive physical assets that cost a lot of money to maintain, at least for the foreseeable future, will not be the places where art is happening. Art will still happen, but we need to make sure we're paying artists when they create online and all those folks were, so no problem with that. But just in general, that's a new arena for commissioning and making work for artists and engaging with audiences. And the other thing is our sector needs to get a lot better about not paying artists only at the time of delivery of those procurements, but actually paying during the entirety of the process so that all the creative costs are being addressed when they're incurred. So that's a positive direction that I think we might go, in coming out of this sector, is reframing how presenters pay artists their work and how venues do.

Lauren Ruffin:

It strikes me that because you're in a region that's so diverse, and I mean in all the ways, so you've got cities like Boston that are fairly dense, lots of people of color. You've got Western Mass and Holyoke, which has people of color from a whole different background with very different economic needs. Then, if you're going all the way up into New Hampshire, Vermont, Maine, then you get into really, really white States. You're probably hearing just so many different things from your grantees right now. Very early in the program, you talked about how you're being more flexible with your grant funds. Can you talk a little bit about that and maybe if you're seeing different needs from different communities?

Cathy Edwards:

Absolutely. I think the big thing I'll lift up that we did is we actually tapped NEFA's risk reserve fund, which we have for our own periodic needs. And we tapped that fund to give it over entirely to artists relief funds in the six New England States. And this issue of the different needs in each of the States and kind of equity of distribution was one we thought about as well, and we ended up taking that money, which was almost $300,000, and dividing it equally between all six States. Even though we knew that, for example, there are a lot more artists in Massachusetts because of the density of population. But what we also saw was that the funds that we put our money into were much better resourced in the southern New England States than the northern States. So Maine's artist relief fund started out with maybe $20,000, and Massachusetts started out with $225,000. So I think we do have an awareness that there is a lot more philanthropic and public money in the Southern New England States than there is in the Northern New England States, which are not only whiter, but the population is so much smaller and they're much older and poorer. So there are a lot of very interesting terrain of need in the region. Yeah.

Lauren Ruffin:

Yeah. We don't talk about New England as a region the same way we talk about the South, but there are so many similarities in terms of wealthy, well-resourced areas and very, very rural populations.

Tim Cynova:

Well, that'll have to be for the next podcast, Lauren.

Lauren Ruffin:

Oh, sorry. I'll close my trap.

Tim Cynova:

We'll give you episode two. Cathy, as we bring the episode in for a landing, what are your parting thoughts for us?

Cathy Edwards:

For me. One of the saving graces of this whole time has been people like you, but honestly the collaboration and the solidarity with other fellow travelers in this beautiful arts and culture space, and being able to kind of lean into all the relationship building that we've done over the past years to actually make something more of it, and really achieve a mutual sense of help and purpose together. I am so grateful for that, so yeah, I'm grateful for you too. Thanks for doing this.

Lauren Ruffin:

That sounds great.

Tim Cynova:

Well, Cathy, we're grateful for you. Yeah, thank you so much for being on the show.

Cathy Edwards:

My pleasure. I'll see you soon.

Tim Cynova:

Continue the Work. Shouldn't. Suck. LIVE adventure with us on our next episode when we're joined by Edgar Villanueva, Senior Vice President of Programs and Advocacy at the Schott Foundation, and author of, Decolonizing Wealth. Miss us in the meantime? You can download more Work. Shouldn't. Suck. episodes from your favorite podcasting platform of choice and re-watch Work. Shouldn't. Suck. LIVE episodes over on workshouldntsuck.co. If you've enjoyed the conversation or just feeling generous today, please consider writing a review on iTunes so that others who might be interested in the topic and join the fund too. Give it a thumbs up or five stars or phone a friend, whatever your podcasting platform of choice offers. If you didn't enjoy this chat, please tell someone about it who you don't like as much. Until next time, thanks for listening.

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Live with Jamie Gahlon & Vijay Mathew ! (EP.29)

Last Updated

April 28, 2020

Work. Shouldn't. Suck. LIVE: The Morning(ish) Show with special guests Jamie Gahlon & Vijay Mathew. [Live show recorded: April 24, 2020.]

Guests: Jamie Gahlon & Vijay Mathew

Co-Hosts: Tim Cynova & Lauren Ruffin

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Guest

JAMIE GAHLON (she/her/hers) is the Director and a co-founder of HowlRound. She is a co-creator of the World Theatre Map and New Play Map, oversees the HowlRound Journal and HowlRound TV, supports the work of the Latinx Theatre Commons, and co-administers The Andrew W. Mellon Foundation’s National Playwright Residency Program, and regularly produces theatre convenings around urgent field-wide issues. Prior to her work at HowlRound, Jamie helped launched the American Voices New Play Institute and the NEA New Play Development Program at Arena Stage. Jamie has also worked for New York Stage & Film, and the New Victory Theatre. She is a proud member of the Latinx Theatre Commons Steering Committee, the Committee of the Jubilee, and a Think Tank Member for the Laboratory for Global Performance and Politics. Jamie holds a Bachelor of Science in Foreign Service with a focus on Culture & Politics from the School of Foreign Service at Georgetown University. She originally hails from Minnesota, the land of 10,000 lakes, and likes to dabble.

VIJAY MATHEW (he/him/his) is the Cultural Strategist and a co-founder of HowlRound Theatre Commons, based at Emerson College, Boston, USA and is privileged to assist a talented team by leading HowlRound's development of commons-based online knowledge sharing platforms and the organization's notions of cultural innovation. Prior to his current position, he was the Coordinator for the National Endowment for the Arts (USA) New Play Development Program, as well as a Theater Communication Group (USA) New Generations Future Leader grant recipient in new work at Arena Stage in Washington, DC. Vijay has a MFA from New School University, New York, a BA from University of Chicago, and an artistic background as an ensemble-based filmmaker and theatremaker. He is a board member of Double Edge Theatre located in rural Ashfield, Massachusetts, USA.

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Transcript

Tim Cynova:

Hi. I'm Tim Cynova, and welcome to Work. Shouldn't. Suck. LIVE! The Morning(ish) show. On today's episode, Lauren Ruffin and I are joined by Jamie Gahlon and Vijay Mathew. Jamie and Vijay are two of the co-founders of HowlRound Theatre Commons, based at Emerson College in Boston, found online at howlround.com. HowlRound is a knowledge commons that encourages freely sharing intellectual and artistic resources and expertise, and was created as a direct response to research that suggested artists were increasingly distant from the center of theater making, within the not-for-profit institutional infrastructure. And, the new possibilities created by technology to influence theater practice. Its founding came at a time when they were seeing too many voices left off of our stages, not represented inside of our institutions, and not recognized for their substantial contribution to our past and present. The co-founders set about to create a group of tools that would amplify voices and issues chronically underrepresented and unheard in the theater, and we are excited to chat with them today. Without further ado, Jamie and Vijay, welcome to the show.

Jamie Gahlon:

That's so much for having us.

Vijay Mathew:

Hi. Thank you.

Lauren Ruffin:

Okay, so let's jump right in. One of the questions we've been ... I'm really, really excited to hear your responses, because I think the work that you're doing, the conversations you're having, are so very timely for the sector, is, how is your community doing, and what are you hearing right now?

Jamie Gahlon:

Yeah, that's such a great question. I would say that our community is vast and diverse, so we're hearing a lot of different things. I've been heartened to see and hear the work that a lot of individual artists are doing to promote knowledge sharing and solution envisioning, right now in this moment. Obviously, it shouldn't go without saying, but the impact of the pandemic on the theater sector is devastating, in particular for freelance artists, who have been hit incredibly hard. We've been lucky to collaborate and support on an incredible series via HowlRound TV with a group of freelance producers, Nicole Brewer, Hannah Fenlon, Ann Marie Lonsdale, Abigail Vega, who created a website called the Artist's Resources for Freelance Artists Website, and they have been hosting an incredible ongoing series on HowlRound TV addressing the needs for freelance artists right now. Talking about everything from processing this moment, grieving, sort of self care, spiritual response, all the way to very practical financial strategies, et cetera, et cetera.

Lauren Ruffin:

Awesome. Vijay, do you have anything to add to that?

Vijay Mathew:

What's been really wonderful is our ability to immediately support this incubator, or help support these initiatives that are really run by the community out there themselves. And that I feel like is our nice sweet spot, when ... or it's very fulfilling when we're able to do something like that, and so quickly.

Lauren Ruffin:

Yeah, so Tim gave you all a fantastic but very formal bio.

Tim Cynova:

It's Friday formal.

Lauren Ruffin:

I missed the memo. How do you all typically introduce yourselves, and your work?

Jamie Gahlon:

Yeah, so I guess I'd introduce myself as, "Hi, I'm Jamie Gahlon. I'm a producer, cultural organizer, theater maker." Yeah, currently based in Boston. I would introduce HowlRound's work... co-founder and director of HowlRound. We're really building a big and open table for conversation about the state of the theater field globally, and with an eye towards trying to really push the field to be more progressive, equitable, just, and sustainable. We function as a knowledge commons, which is... Another way of saying that that might be more approachable is that all of our content is community sourced. So our platform is really about stewarding the ideas and knowledge contributions of theater makers who choose to participate, along the values agenda that we've laid out. And all of our content is licensed under Creative Commons, which means that it can be shared openly and freely, which is in line with our ethos.

Tim Cynova:

HowlRound has made some really amazing resources available to help people with the technology backend to be able to do this. And Lauren I should pause here to thank you for, in particular, the piece that you wrote, How To Produce a Live Streamed Event. Spent several days pouring over that, looking at the resources, testing stuff out. You were also so kind to test a couple of things out when we were in the early days. For those who are interested in producing their own live stream event, HowlRound has some really amazing resources there. I also want to thank you for the piece that you wrote, that I learned about it in the fall, What's Your Vision For a Post Carbon Art Sector? Which was a really fascinating piece to read in the fall, and that was before we started seeing travel and life shutting down. In our green room, I was remarking that I saw a piece today that said, "Two days ago, only 24 flights took off from LaGuardia in the month of January." Just out of LaGuardia, 31,000 flights landed and took off from there.

Tim Cynova:

We're seeing photos of places around the globe that had been cloaked in smog for years and we're seeing cities that have, other than Albuquerque, coyotes walking down the center of the street, kangaroos and animals coming back to cities in a way that we haven't seen. I'm curious where your mind is right now as you think about what's going on in the world. How can we be proactive about some of these changes that are happening and holding on to some of the positive ones?

Vijay Mathew:

We're in a catastrophe right now, but at the same time it feels like there's a bit of grace. There's this time, or this moment, where before the... More of the waves of climate change starts to hit the global north, the wealthy countries. This is actually the moment, this is the opportunity to totally re-figure the way that we all operate as a society, as a civilization, as an economy. And I think at the end of this physical distancing moment, if we're coming back into the same thing that we had, what will our future opportunities of taking pause, what will those look like, and will they be more difficult to actually recover from? Yeah, I think we're at a fork in the road right now, and actually this is maybe the opportunity, at least us in the... what we can do, what we have control over, or a little tiny influence over, is our arts field. This is maybe the moment to redesign.

Lauren Ruffin:

In some ways in terms of building pipes for other folks to move along, the work that HowlRound does north of [inaudible 00:06:44] is similar, and I'm curious about your work structure as a team, internally. How has that shifted over the last few months and what tools and resources have been particularly helpful as you do this?

Jamie Gahlon:

So okay, on one hand everything has changed, but also in some ways nothing has changed, because so much of our work has existed digitally primarily. And so now we're all working from home, and obviously we all have different home circumstances that we're adjusting to and giving ourselves grace and flexibility with. But I would say the biggest area of shift for us has probably been around the preponderance of TV events and the figuring out how to adjust our capacity within our own staff to help meet the increased demand there.

Jamie Gahlon:

We've brought back someone we used to work with, and we've also increased hours for some other folks that we've been working with. But in terms of how we work together as a team, we've kept a lot of the rituals we had going before. So, we have our weekly team check-ins, we have an editorial meeting, we're certainly Gchatting a lot more. We're doing more Zoom Hangouts, and also we're anchored in the Office of the Arts at Emerson college. So, HowlRound is a sort of pod that's part of a bigger culture of Office of the Arts and there's a lot of meetups that we've been doing in that context as well, which have included things like yoga classes and meditation, and other kinds of newer offerings around self care that folks can choose to opt into.

Tim Cynova:

You all have been working for a decade on live streaming video events, and there's this rush of organizations and people now trying to figure this out. What have you found for the quote, unquote, best practices or for people to think about as they're hoping, or trying, to transition into more of a virtual convening setting than what might have formerly been 3D only?

Vijay Mathew:

Like best practices? I mean it depends, not everything needs to be live streamed. Just a conversation that's not completely public can meet all the goals. So, I mean that would be one thing is...really set the goals of why you're doing anything online and what you're hoped to achieve, and that can help determine the design of it. If it's just a video conference or a video conference and gets live streamed, and also keep things short and planned and maybe have an outline or structure because I think we're all getting a bit of a screen fatigue now.

Tim Cynova:

Yeah.

Lauren Ruffin:

Just a little bit. Or are you laughing, Tim, because you're so very structured?

Tim Cynova:

I look at Lauren and I'm like... I have a good sense of what Lauren is thinking about me, thinking about what I'm thinking about. But yeah, it's like they often refer to it as the Zoom meeting exhaustion coefficient. At least... It used to be just twice as exhausting as a 3d meeting, and I think it might be three or four times as exhausting now because we're just going from one thing to the next and it's just all on our screen. It's no longer a 3D meeting and then a Zoom meeting and then something else, and you go outside and you walk around you and... so just the back-to-back, I think. Maybe it's as the day goes on, could have been a 60-minute meeting... you're good if you get 10 out of it before people just start to fade.

Lauren Ruffin:

Yeah. I just think that's the importance of saying no to things, and of being really protective of your calendar, I think is definitely... so many of our guests have struggled with the shift to being totally on screens.

Vijay Mathew:

And I think one of the things that we may take back, all of us, is that a lot of in person meetings, gatherings, conferences, don't actually have to happen in person, and I think we're getting an idea of what's important to actually have in person and what can you actually accomplish really well and with a lot less resources, online.

Lauren Ruffin:

Yeah, it does amplify that meme about how this meeting could have been an email.

Vijay Mathew:

Yeah.

Lauren Ruffin:

I feel like it's really hard. Yeah, for sure. I'm also sort of in that vein. Are there aspects of working like this that you think you will keep, or do you feel like if things open up, I use that very tongue in cheek, are you going to go back to the way that y'all were previously?

Vijay Mathew:

Look, I'm personally more productive than I've ever been, just because no more commute and the ability to walk around and go to my kitchen.

Lauren Ruffin:

Yeah,

Jamie Gahlon:

Yeah. I mean I definitely think the... Before we were like pretty office based, with one day a week work from home. I think that certainly there will be shifts, I would imagine, around flexibility of just where we work and how we work moving forward, more flexibility there. I guess I'm really interested in thinking about the things that folks are doing now in the field. The pivots that I'm seeing and what we might carry with us moving forward out of this moment of crisis. So, I've been really inspired by all of these mutual aid networks popping up. I mean they're essentially commons in action both from the hyper-local Slack channel that me and my neighbors have to keep each other sane and offer mutual support, and get that tomato that somebody might have that you need or or what have you, all the way to stuff that I'm noticing in the field happening like, the ICA in their East Boston location is now a fresh food distribution center. Same thing with Jack in Brooklyn, they've partnered with the, We Keep Us Safe Abolitionist Network to set up as a food distribution center. We know that all of these theaters and many theaters are sewing masks.

Jamie Gahlon:

Folks have found ways to pivot to be part of some of the essential services that are so needed right now and immigrated in response to local community needs. And, as well as looking at things like the work of [inaudible 00:12:36] around emergency [inaudible 00:12:37]... needed, but I am very inspired by the launch of The Art of [inaudible 00:12:43], you know, what [inaudible 00:12:45] is doing in the [inaudible 00:12:47] area on a more local level. And third strand, I think, is around the artist-led relief initiative.

Jamie Gahlon:

So, Trickle Up thinking about new models for support for artists, thinking about the work that the freelance producers are doing that I referenced at the top of the call, and this sort of generosity of knowledge sharing that's happening on platforms like HowlRound and elsewhere, and I guess I hope, or I'm wondering and I'm curious about what we can learn from these behaviors that have felt so needed in this moment and are coming out as a response for this moment, but I hope that [inaudible 00:13:28] that we carry with us... forward and that help us create a different landscape for our field moving forward, that can serve more of us.

Tim Cynova:

Let's [inaudible 00:13:38] to a question that's coming in. You both were talking about these things, I just wanted to see if there's anything else that might get picked up here. The question is, can you give a sense of the various conversations emerging on The Journal on how the communities you serve are fairing, feeling challenged and feeling hopeful.

Jamie Gahlon:

Hello. Hi Diane. Thank you for this question. Let's see. There's so many threads of conversation emerging I will think of... yeah, I'll pull on maybe just a couple of pieces and then Vijay you should weigh in too. So, we published a beautiful essay this week by Noel Venus, who's a playwright based in New York, and she was reflecting on a lot of the different opinions that have been floating around, the notion of making in this moment and the role of a playwright in this moment. And the thing that I found so... she talks\ed about how the theater is often an art of futurity, that we're looking to the future. We're planning, we're planning more planning, and she sort of offered a provocation around thinking, what if we think of theater as an art of the now? Like what does that mean in this moment around how we make, who we make with, what our priorities are, what kind of models we need to support the work. That's a question that I've been sitting with.

Jamie Gahlon:

Another thread of conversation that has been really... I guess we've been talking about it a lot as a team since we published this piece was... Kaja Dunn wrote a beautiful piece about the need to take a pause and the need for us to, in this moment, give ourselves time to process and grieve and intentionally resist capitalism's insatiable need and urge for productivity and to produce. I guess I feel maybe less equipped to speak on behalf of communities ar large, Diane, and how they're feeling hoped and challenge. I feel more inclined to pull out just a few specific voices that have felt really compelling to me in this moment. But I'll throw it over to Vijay who I'm sure has some other opinions.

Vijay Mathew:

Yeah, I think we're still also in a moment of people just dealing and processing the shock of what has happened, and so I think we're seeing a lot of that in the TV live streaming programming where we have a lot of masterclasses, playwriting classes happening like Suzan-Lori Parks Watch Me Work from home, which was an ongoing series but now it's happening every day at 5:00 pm Eastern.

Vijay Mathew:

It's a moment to work on the craft of playwriting, but it's also a time to come together as a community just to see each other from all our places in isolation and to collectively process the trauma of what's going on. And interestingly, we have two other playwriting series going on as well, the Latinx superhero playwriting class, and then there's also this other emerging story, or idea, how in these crises, they already marginalized... communities and people get doubly or triply marginalized and there's been a very interesting series of live streaming events organized by a collective called Unsettling Dramaturgy. They've had two events already, one was specifically about land acknowledgements. Another was about crip and indigenous from the churches, and they're an action group in a sense of trying to figure out how they can start to center these ideas so that it becomes a mainstream practice.

Lauren Ruffin:

Along those same lines, one of the things that I've always wondered about making theater, as someone who was not an artist or theater maker at all, is are you seeing ensemble groups continue to create together and having plans to produce or produce or show work online from separate places, is there anything innovative happening in that realm?

Vijay Mathew:

Oh yeah, definitely. In addition to tons of conversations that are happening, people are starting to figure out performance in physical distancing and using these internet technologies to collaborate around performance. That happened... that coincided with the number that started mid-March, where people putting up performances, adapting immediately what they're doing in person to the online space, and regularly there are organizations such as CultureHub and La MaMa, both based in New York city that are creating a platform for artists to figure these things out, to really truly experiment with these technologies to see how performing artists can use them.

Lauren Ruffin:

Yeah, it strikes me just knowing what I know about the economic model for theater, there's such a high cost to needing to work in the same place, and it strikes me that there's a real ability to unlock capacity and resources and connection and collaboration if you let go of needing to be in shared space and start thinking about shared reality instead. And I'm really curious to see how that plays out in the theater field in particular.

Jamie Gahlon:

Yeah, that's so interesting. I also think along those lines that Vijay just referenced, I think we're in a really fascinating moment where folks are beginning to move beyond this transposition of what was the real thing, into digital and into thinking through what it means to be innately digital right now because of this forced circumstance. But I do wonder what are the practices and new norms that we're going to bring with us wherever we may go as a result of this time. And that feels very exciting and very much like a... well for new creativitys, especially when we think about things like lessening our carbon footprint, the resource allocations that you talk about and accessibility of all the work.

Tim Cynova:

All right, this feels like a good time for the suitcase question.

Jamie Gahlon:

Yeah? Okay. I need to figure out who does the backpack. So the suitcase question started with Deborah Cullinan, and she was on our show talking about how she has all these... the suitcase that she carries around with her live-workplace practices and life practices. And she realizes that she's unpacking a lot of stuff and then putting in a lot of new things, and new habits, and new behaviors that she's learning as she's working more and more online. And so my question for both of you is what is one thing that you are... thrown out of your suitcase that you've been carrying around for a long time? Can be work, can be personal and what's one behavior or practice that you have just started to do that you are going to carry far into the future?

Jamie Gahlon:

I guess by necessity I feel like I've thrown out equating real life with... I think I've decoupled togetherness and intimacy on some level with real life. Whether or not I want... But I think that's, something I'm feeling right now, and I think one thing that I'm carrying forward are... I guess I have a certain number of rituals that I feel like I've developed in this moment, and for me they're around the sort of cultivating space for work time when I'm in my 808 square foot apartment, that's also my personal space. And I think they're very simple. They're about changing my kitchen table from a kitchen table to my desk, and I think there's something really beautiful about those small rituals and also I have a gratitude practice that I've been cultivating for a while, but I think that that has felt even more important to me now, and that's something that I will also carry forward, just like a daily gratitude practice.

Lauren Ruffin:

Awesome.

Tim Cynova:

Vijay?

Vijay Mathew:

Yeah, so the thing I'm throwing out of my suitcase, I think is maybe the despair or hopelessness that things can't and won't change fast. I was so, so surprised by literally how the world could dial down on what it's doing within a week. Extraordinary kind of thing. The fact that the way that our civilization works... it felt such a huge, insurmountable monolith. How does anyone ever stop that machine from running? So throwing out that notion, that kind of mental thing, throwing that out. Then I'm adding just taking care of myself. Walking every morning is a wonderful thing.

Tim Cynova:

Awesome. As we land the plane on this episode, we'll have 24 planes landing at LaGuardia, I guess. What are your parting thoughts? Something maybe we haven't covered that you really think is important to leave in this space or just whatever's on your mind?

Vijay Mathew:

One thing on my mind is that as we're creating new things that we really think hard and prioritize accessibility and inclusion. Like what Jamie mentioned earlier, especially when we do online things. That's one thing, and also that this online world that we're all now diving into... that we figure out limits to that and actually think about what does a metered internet look like? What if the internet is actually a scarce resource, which it is, but we live under the illusion that it's unlimited, that we can always have this energy running all these servers.

Jamie Gahlon:

I guess I'm just really thinking about notions of mutual support on both person-to-person level and field wide. I mean our field is broken. Many of us may have felt this before, but you look at what's happening now and I mean we need to fundamentally rebuild how we work together and what our systems are, and we need to put artists at the center of those systems and we need to build equitable models of support. So, I think this is an opportunity for us all to really interrogate our status quo on every level and think through how we can build a better... better models moving forward.

Tim Cynova:

Jamie, Vijay, thank you so much for spending time with us today. Thanks for being on the show.

Jamie Gahlon:

Thanks for having me.

Vijay Mathew:

Thank you very much.

Tim Cynova:

Continue the Work. Shouldn't. Suck. LIVE! adventure with us on our next episode when we're joined by Cathy Edwards, executive director of New England Foundation for the Arts. Miss us in the meantime? You can download more Work. Shouldn't. Suck. episodes from your favorite podcasting platform of choice and re-watch Work. Shouldn't. Suck. LIVE! episodes over on workshouldntsuck.co. If you've enjoyed the conversation or are just feeling generous today, please consider writing a review on iTunes so that others who might be interested in the topic and join the fund too. Give it a thumbs up or five stars or phone a friend, whatever your podcasting platform of choice offers. If you didn't enjoy this chat, please tell someone about it who you don't like as much. Until next time, thanks for listening.

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Live with Caroline Woolard! (EP.28)

Last Updated

April 24, 2020

Work. Shouldn't. Suck. LIVE: The Morning(ish) Show with special guest Caroline Woolard. [Live show recorded: April 22, 2020.]

Guest: Caroline Woolard

Co-Hosts: Tim Cynova & Lauren Ruffin

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Guest

CAROLINE WOOLARD employs sculpture, immersive installation, and online networks to imagine and enact systems of collaboration and mutual aid. Her work has been commissioned by and exhibited in major national and international museums, including MoMA, the Whitney Museum, and Creative Time. Recent scholarly writing on her work has been published in The Brooklyn Rail (2018); Artforum (2016); Art in America (2016); The New York Times (2016); and South Atlantic Quarterly (2015). Woolard’s work has been featured twice on New York Close Up (2014, 2016), a digital film series produced by Art21 and broadcast on PBS. She is the 2018–20 inaugural Walentas Fellow at Moore College of Art and Design and the inaugural 2019–20 Artist in Residence for INDEX, a new initiative at the Rose Museum.

Woolard co-founded barter networks OurGoods.org and TradeSchool.coop (2008-2015), the Study Center for Group Work (since 2016), BFAMFAPhD.com (since 2014), and the NYC Real Estate Investment Cooperative (since 2016). Recent commissions include The Meeting, with a rolling premiere at The New School, Brandeis University, The School of the Art Institute of Chicago, and Moore College of Art and Design, Philadelphia, PA (2019); WOUND, Cooper Union, New York, NY (2016); and Capitoline Wolves, Cornell University, Ithaca, NY (2016), and Exchange Café, MoMA, New York, NY (2014). She is the recipient of a number of awards and fellowships including at Moore College of Art and Design (2019), Pilchuck (2018), the Lower Manhattan Cultural Council (2016), the Queens Museum (2014), Eyebeam (2013), Rockefeller Cultural Innovation Fund (2010), Watermill (2011), and the MacDowell Colony (2009). Caroline Woolard is Assistant Professor at the University of Hartford, and the Nomad/9 Interdisciplinary MFA program. Making and Being, her book about interdisciplinary collaboration, co-authored with Susan Jahoda, was published in the fall of 2019. 

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Transcript

Tim Cynova:

Hi, I'm Tim Cynova, and welcome to Work. Shouldn't. Suck. LIVE: The Morning(ish) Show.

Tim Cynova:

On today's episode, Lauren Ruffin and I are joined by Caroline Woolard. Caroline employs sculpture, immersive installation, and online networks to imagine and enact systems of collaboration and mutual aid. Her work and writing has been featured in a number of amazing places. She is the 2018-2020 inaugural Walentas Fellow at Moore College of Art & Design, and the inaugural 2019-2020 Artist-in-Residence for INDEX, a new initiative at the Rose Museum. Following the economic collapse of 2007 and 2008, she cofounded barter networks OurGoods and TradeSchool.coop. Caroline is assistant professor at the University of Hartford in the Nomad/9 Interdisciplinary MFA Program, and Making and Being, her book about interdisciplinary collaboration coauthored with Susan Jahoda, was published in the fall of 2019. And, fun fact: she used to run track in the Junior Olympics. Without further ado, Caroline, welcome to the show!

Caroline Woolard:

Hey. Good to be here. I have to-

Lauren Ruffin:

It's so good to see your face.

Caroline Woolard:

It's good to see you.

Lauren Ruffin:

I feel like we're fortunate, because we've spoken twice in the last three weeks or so, so I'm getting periodic updates on how life is. But how are you doing? And how are all the folks that you're interacting with on a regular basis doing right now during the pandemic?

Caroline Woolard:

I'm okay. I have the privilege of having a job, I have a tenure-track teaching job, and I'm healthy. So I'm here with my partner and I feel pretty safe. I have access to wi-fi, as you can see here. But yeah, in terms of my community, I guess I think about community in terms of identity and work and geography. In terms of queer, art, New York-based communities that I'm thinking of, I think it's a combination of full-on survival and a lot of loss and grieving. I was just talking to Gonzalo Casals, and he made this good point that queer leadership is collective leadership, and that that's really hard to do right now. Because so many people don't have access to gathering and are not well, and it's hard to do all of this by phone or Zoom nonstop. So I think it's a time of longing and loss, but also, as always in moments like this, increased mutual aid and increased dreaming. So it's both, yeah, a real struggle and a reminder of the power of self-determination and community.

Lauren Ruffin:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). I agree with all that, and especially that piece around self-determination. Can you talk a little bit more about that? I'm supposed to ask you another question, but that really drew my attention, and you know I'm distracted by shiny things. Can you just give me some more on that?

Caroline Woolard:

What comes to mind immediately when I think about self-determination is so many communities that have been marginalized through structural policy and structural violence. For example, when I think about self-determination, I think about Weeksville in New York City, this free black community and the legacy that people drew upon, thinking about Weeksville, in making community land trusts both in New York City and in Georgia or beyond. And the idea that, despite every single odd, where all so-called public structures were trying to kill and erase communities of color, black people in particular, but also queer people, women... So many people, with a real emphasis on anti-black racism. Despite all of that, you can see a flourishing business, school, housing community in Weeksville, in the first community land trust in Georgia much later, and in so many places.

Caroline Woolard:

If you look at... Even in my building in New York City, which is a low-income co-op, the ways that people are coming together to solve basic things, like "How are we going to get food to older people?" This is drawing on a long legacy of knowing that we can do it ourselves and do it together despite every single odd and structure and policy that has said "You shouldn't survive. You shouldn't be here. You don't have a right to this." And obviously it has a different flavor because I'm a cis white woman, but I can also be in solidarity with the long-term organizing of artists of color, people of color, in New York and beyond.

Lauren Ruffin:

That's dope. So, Tim gave you an introduction. Obviously, given just that conversation we just had, there's a lot of other things that you are thinking about and doing. How are you introducing yourself, or how are you thinking about your work right now?

Caroline Woolard:

Yeah, this question of how to introduce yourself when you're interdisciplinary and you work in groups! And a lot of the time, it's based on what has to happen, rather than a job or an official title or a salary. It's hard for me to say, "Oh, I'm the director of X, Y, and Z," or "I do this one thing." So I was thinking about how to say this, and I guess the most common thing I say across the board is: I'm an artist who believes in economic justice. And what that means specifically is that I have skills with graphic design and new media and sculpture, and I can contribute that to existing work for workplace dignity, for example, worker cooperatives; affordable housing, for example, community land trusts; or any mutual aid network that needs a way to think about visibility, nuance, and speaking without words, visually. I can support that.

Tim Cynova:

One of the things that's on your bio... And for those who are listening or watching, just to capture... The bio's so rich. I think I just pulled random sentences from your bio, so apologies for what I used-

Caroline Woolard:

It's a long one.

Tim Cynova:

It's amazing. I was, in particular, drawn to the work you're doing right now focused on conflict transformation in groups. Because you talk about... Your work asks questions around, "Can an object interrupt the unavoidable antagonisms of working together? How do workers without bosses transform workplace conflict?" And when we mentioned this in the green room, you had some things you had brought along with you, which seem fascinating. What is this work, how are you thinking about it, why do you have objects that are cool and unusual for video meetings?

Caroline Woolard:

For example... So, I agree that work shouldn't suck. I like the title of this thing, and one way that work needs to stop sucking is with how boring our meetings are. I was just talking to Andrew Nurkin, who works at the Free Library of Philadelphia, and he said it's always Blursday and Zoom o'clock in the pandemic. And I was like, "That's about right." So even before we were all in our Zoom-a-thon, I was making these objects, very strange objects. This is if you talk too much, you're going to get this from me.

Lauren Ruffin:

The tongue?

Caroline Woolard:

"Stop talking." Yeah, all kinds of things. I have weird... So many objects here that I could show you. Got a little card game here. So in this question of what an artist can do, when we're thinking about economic justice and you're in an interdisciplinary group, for better or worse, you're going to have a lot of meetings. And they often suck, like work, because there are no trainings around facilitation, especially equitable facilitation. And for better or worse, people need to collectively metabolize a concept and an idea before you can take action with that idea. And that takes a long time. I'm sure you all know, and have been in these meetings where you think, "Oh, we finally all agree on this thing!" And then you get to the next meeting, and you're like, "What?" And they just say the same thing they were saying before, or you say the same thing you were saying before, because your brain is still just your brain. It's not the collective brain. And so-

Lauren Ruffin:

That happened to us this morning.

Caroline Woolard:

Oof! Yeah, it's so bad.

Lauren Ruffin:

I didn't know what meetings... I had no idea where I was supposed to be later on, and apparently they said it like six times, and I was like, "Where am I going? What am I doing?"

Caroline Woolard:

So it's like this patience and this reality of the collective metabolism, and one way to enjoy the slow pace of that collective learning is to bring in weird objects. So as an artist, I love making objects, and at one point I realized, "Oh, I just spent a decade of my life in meetings." Like, sure, I helped create barter networks and self-organized learning spaces, but in reality it was like this. Maybe on Zoom, maybe in person. So how can I bring tactility to those spaces?

Caroline Woolard:

And I started working with Esteban Kelly, who is the director of the U.S. Federation of Worker Co-ops. So yeah, it's a technical assistance organization that helps people who don't have bosses, who are in ownership of their business, figure out how to run the business and how to talk to each other better. And he was like, "Absolutely, let's bring in objects." So I've been able to see how he does things like facilitate a workshop on conflict with this amazing object that people talk to. And he's an unusual person, because he is not in the arts officially, but he thinks visually and he teaches visually and loves that playful approach that not all facilitators would want to do at all.

Tim Cynova:

So for people that will just listen to this, the first item that you brought out, that you just showed, was a giant head that looks like it's made of plaster.

Caroline Woolard:

It's actually made out of mycelium, which is a whole other thing we could talk about, the rhizome-

Lauren Ruffin:

Mushrooms?

Caroline Woolard:

Yeah, it's made out of a mushroom, which is a sustainable material.

Lauren Ruffin:

I only know that because of Star Trek Discovery.

Caroline Woolard:

Okay, continue. You can describe it. You could put this in your yard and compost it when you're done with it. It's not toxic.

Tim Cynova:

That's amazing. So yeah, there's a giant head, is the first item. The second item was, like, a cast of a large tongue. Great. And I missed exactly what the third item was that you showed earlier on.

Caroline Woolard:

This is a eye, that... This part, you fill it with water. It's made out of porcelain. It's 3-D printed. You could order it online for not much. And then it has a little hole, the pupil. So this sinks, and that tells you when a moment has passed. Either you've spoken too long or the ritual is over, whatever. It's a kind of alternative timekeeping device.

Tim Cynova:

About how much time do you get before the pupil sinks? Which is a sentence I never thought I'd put together.

Caroline Woolard:

I guess I'd say around three minutes. So it's not that short.

Lauren Ruffin:

That's a long time to talk, even directly.

Caroline Woolard:

Oh, yeah. I would rather do a moment of silence or some kind of activity, unless you have a very small group like the three of us.

Tim Cynova:

I'm also imagining, like... Someone has a bag of pupils that they have throughout meetings, and then they just have to keep replacing them as you go through the meeting.

Caroline Woolard:

Totally.

Tim Cynova:

Those are fascinating objects. If you're listening to this and you're able, the video on YouTube will make those objects far more vivid than my explanation, and now you're very confused, I'm sure, about what this pupil eye dish looks like.

Lauren Ruffin:

I can't wait to read the transcript for this.

Tim Cynova:

It's true, I can't... Yeah.

Lauren Ruffin:

It's going to be amazing.

Tim Cynova:

Where do you purchase that 3-D eye dish? You said you could buy it?

Caroline Woolard:

Yeah. Right now you should just email me, but I'm working to make a huge project with the Free Library of Philadelphia, and with them it's going to be freely accessible for any library patrons to check out. They're doing curbside pickup soon, so you can just call them or look online and then ask for it from the collection, and they'll bring it to the curb.

Lauren Ruffin:

That's really awesome. I didn't know that you knew and were working with Esteban, but that makes so much sense.

Caroline Woolard:

We've known each other for so long, way back from AORTA days, this Anti-Oppression Resource Training Alliance group that does a lot of great facilitation work. So maybe 10 years ago we met, and then I got this money to do a project with Moore College, and I was like, "Philly. Esteban."

Lauren Ruffin:

I just met him last fall, in Oakland.

Caroline Woolard:

Cool.

Lauren Ruffin:

But we were on a panel together, and I think there was... I feel like there might've been someone else on the panel, but I don't know. It was just he and I being ridiculous together.

Lauren Ruffin:

So I did want to make sure that we made some time to talk about two things. One was your work with worker co-ops, and ownership of those, and I was hoping you could spend some time speaking to us about that. And I really love the phrase "worker dignity." We talk a lot about people-centered organizations, and I feel like they're adjacent but also very different. So if you could sort of dig into that a little bit for us, I think it'd be great for our audience.

Caroline Woolard:

So I guess, especially now, people are seeing the reality of the professed mission of an organization or a business and the reality of their practice under stress. And I think this is where the truth of our values comes out. So you can see so many institutions having to make the hard decision about which aspects of their organization or business they're going to keep. And it turns out, most of the time it's not the people. So I know if you're a leader and you have to make these decisions right now, it is not easy. It's incredibly challenging. The whole thing might be going under. But what I mean by "worker dignity," and what's possible in a worker cooperative, is a collective conversation about how to place people before profit, and also potentially before some of the infrastructure that tends to take precedent over people's livelihoods.

Caroline Woolard:

So for example, in a situation that would be about the dignity of workers, you would think about what healthcare and healing needs everyone in your workplace needs right now, maybe before you'd go on to the next program, to the next online translation of an in-person experience. In a worker cooperative, because every worker has a vote or a say in the decisions that are made, at different levels, depending on the cooperative structure, you could have a very frank conversation about this. And a lot of co-ops are doing that right now, especially because there's decreased revenue.

Lauren Ruffin:

No, thank you for that.

Caroline Woolard:

And then, why... Should I say why we need this in the arts?

Lauren Ruffin:

Yeah, absolutely.

Caroline Woolard:

So yeah, for me, because a lot of artists get into this work, connecting to community and speaking without words... We all get into this work, I'd say, on some level, because we believe that we should be in control of our labor, that we want to determine when we're clocking in and when we're clocking out. Which, as a caveat, I'd say is true of all people, but it gets to be romanticized and projected as a sense of subjectivity or way of being for artists. So anyway, let's say the artist gets to claim when they work. And if this is the case, then the artist should imagine that they could pool their resources with other artists in order to determine when they work and also to create a livelihood together.

Caroline Woolard:

So, for example, good friends of mine in New York run a filmmaking collective and cooperative called Meerkat Media. It's Meerkat, M-E-E-R-K-A-T, like the animal, Media. And what it means is that they're able to work together as really great filmmakers, and not have their day job on the one hand, which doesn't respect them, and their artistic career on the other hand, which maybe happens late at night. They get to be together all day producing films for groups that are aligned with their values, and the surplus money they make goes into a collective pool that they can use for their independent projects. And they're able to do things like buy $50,000 cameras together, have a health insurance fund, think about maternity leave, and really be clear with one another about what happens at scale when you work together.

Caroline Woolard:

So artists often want to have all of their time in their studio or determine their work alone, but actually that is not possible, and it's a far worse life at the scale of one person, I would say, than if you can find a livelihood in collectivity with other arts workers. Now, of course, not every field will allow that, but in filmmaking it's possible. In new media it's possible. And you can be creative about what's possible in this context we're in right now. And that's what you're doing, Lauren!

Lauren Ruffin:

I'm doing my best. Doing my best.

Tim Cynova:

We have a viewer question. Also a "Great to see you," Caroline. "Do you imagine or hope for a workers' movement arising out of this moment? Artists, plus so many others, tech, teachers, service industry, et cetera?" Thanks for the question.

Caroline Woolard:

Yeah. Hey, Diane. I think that is always a goal, and it is possible. I think that we're seeing it at a small scale now, at different levels, around the rent that a lot of artists have to pay as small businesses in their individual buildings, working together to think what's feasible. But yeah, I think, look at W.A.G.E., Working Artists and the Greater Economy. A number of initiatives that Springboard for the Arts is doing. There is a sense of collectivity, but I think moving across art and tech is still a very difficult thing to do, which we could all talk about. Like, who still has a job? That's what I'm trying to say.

Lauren Ruffin:

You're so very right. And speaking of jobs, I know you spend a lot of time thinking about what the future of work looks like, and what the future of preparing learners for a workforce and for sustainability. And I'm having a lot of conversations right now about what is higher ed going to look like, and being very closely associated. Both my wife and my father are in education administration at the K-through-12 level, and they're having the... We seem to be operating on the assumption that, at all levels, K through postsecondary, that schools are wanting to open back up in the fall.

Lauren Ruffin:

Yeah, exactly. "Ha ha ha ha ha, silly humans!" I would love... Because I know you're doing really great thinking on this, and I know some folks are listening who are dying to hear what your predictions are, and... The fragility of our entire American educational system, I think, is about to be exposed. So I'd just love to hear you talk about that.

Caroline Woolard:

Yeah, thank you. Hmm. Let me think where to begin. I guess one thing to start with is a realization that it's not because of this pandemic that a lot of schools are facing financial hardship. We can see that, if you look... Especially, there's a field now called critical university studies, so you can look at what a lot of scholars are saying there. But they all agree that the height of progressive public education at the postsecondary college level in the humanities, especially the visual arts, peaked in the late 1950s and continued through the 1970s. So that's when we see things like the Free University of California system, Free CUNY, this is when so many moments like African American studies, women's studies, ethnic studies, all emerge.

Caroline Woolard:

And after that, with increasing financialization in the '70s, we have seen a real decline in access to affordable public education at the college level. So a lot of the things you hear now about schools needing bailouts, I think it's important to look at the larger picture, over the past hundred years, even. And in terms of what we're going to do now, I think this is an amazing moment to rethink what people actually need. If what we want is artists to be able to enter the so-called workforce, or create the workforce of their dreams when they exit some kind of training program, whether it's accredited or not, there are a lot of things that we can learn from this moment.

Caroline Woolard:

I think, for example, if you look at the work of disability justice movement leaders, there will be a lot of understanding around how to access events, why they all need to be in-person... And also if you look at transformative justice organizing, consent around touch is now going to be understood more broadly. So I think if you talk to leaders like the artist and choreographer-dancer, Alice Sheppard, who you might know, if you talk to groups like Generative Somatics and Alta Starr, they do a lot with transformative justice and somatic healing. I think that will lead the way, in terms of access and consent.

Caroline Woolard:

And then in terms of specific forms, there are so many things I'm excited about. I mean, we can see a return of self-organized learning spaces, like... I don't know if you knew the Utopia Neighborhood House of the 1920s in Harlem. Steffani Jemison, an artist who's great, who just got a Guggenheim, did a project about Utopia Neighborhood House. I think, for me, it would be exciting to have, in New York City, retired arts faculty and older artists get support in terms of space to mentor younger artists. They have something called SCORE, which is the small business mentorship model in New York City, where you can go for free and get your Wall Street grandpa to help you, if that's supportive. So we could see more cities supporting mentorship that's intergenerational for free.

Caroline Woolard:

I think we can also see really robust online platforms that allow the kind of one-to-one connection that really builds social-cultural capital and intellectual growth. I don't know why someone hasn't jumped on that. The moment this hit, I was like, where's the critique platform of the future? But we can be hyper-local and be involved in our mutual aid networks and our communities here in all the ways that we need to be for our own sense of safety and community and belonging, but we can have more intergenerational and international conversations that, so far, have been very limited in art schools.

Tim Cynova:

There's a question that came up... You've touched on this, around, what are some tools or resources out there for solidarity organizing? But I want to put the question into this space, if there's other things specific to this that you think are useful to highlight.

Caroline Woolard:

Oh, it's Brad. Hey! He's in Baltimore. Baltimore people! Well, I would look at things like what the U.S. Federation of Worker Cooperatives just put out. There's also, if you're in the Bay Area, the SELC... What is that? The Sustainable Economies-

Lauren Ruffin:

-Economies Law Center.

Caroline Woolard:

-Law Center? Yeah.

Lauren Ruffin:

Yeah. They're great.

Caroline Woolard:

They just put out a great list of resources, if you're there. The New Economy Coalition is often putting out a lot of great resources, and I imagine in the show notes we could link to a bunch. But I would start there. I'd also look at the People's Forum in New York City. And personally I've been involved in the cooperative Economics Alliance of New York, CEANYC. So we can put them all in there, but in general I'd say, find your local worker cooperative. Just Google "worker cooperative" in your neighborhood, and then see who's running it and contact them, either through social media or phone, and find out who supports them. Because usually there's a credit union that supports them, there's a land trust, there's affordable housing, and all of these things are networked together. It just takes a few people to introduce you to the larger network that is supporting the effort.

Tim Cynova:

Great. Probably two more questions. This is so much... I mean, there's so many links that I'm going to find and post in the description. We're covering such amazing ground, Caroline. Thank you so much for offering this. Lauren, do you have another question before we go for the Land the Plane one?

Lauren Ruffin:

Yes. But it's not fully formed yet, so we should probably just let Caroline talk, and I'm sure something will tickle my brain. Are there things that you're thinking about, or conversations you're having that we haven't touched on yet that you think are really important to our audience?

Caroline Woolard:

I think the hardest thing in this moment is to find other people who can talk to you about what to do beyond crisis management, whether that means healing yourself or the person you care about or saving your business or organization. And I think if each of us can find a moment to really step back and do enough healing practices to recognize if we have the privilege of health and connection right now, to think holistically so that we go way beyond just getting through and returning to normal, whatever that was.

Caroline Woolard:

And finding other people to talk to, like this conversation, where we can brainstorm a future that we actually want despite all of the enormous structural violence and challenges that we see ahead. This is a moment where things can be invented, and especially if you're 18 or 22, this is your generational moment. Build that platform. And also contact me! Contact Lauren! This is the time for that mentorship. I got that mentorship when I got out of the 2007 crisis, and that's our job also, to mentor those people who are building this for their generation and ours.

Lauren Ruffin:

That piece around mentorship... I was talking to my wife yesterday and she was like, "This is wild," and I'm like, "Our entire adulthood has been wild. Like, what's more wild than two planes flying into the World Trade Center, or a sniper randomly shooting people around the beltway, or..." And I went through this whole list of things, and she was like, "Oh, you're right." And I was like, "The last 20 years have been wild." I have a theory about alternate timelines that I won't leave here, but I think you're so right, and I love that phrase, "a future we actually want." Oh-

Tim Cynova:

Yeah, most definitely.

Lauren Ruffin:

Always, Caroline-

Tim Cynova:

Yeah. Wonderful.

Lauren Ruffin:

A sermon. A whole sermon.

Tim Cynova:

Yeah.

Caroline Woolard:

Well, I love talking to both of you, and I'm glad you're making space for these conversations.

Tim Cynova:

Thank you so much for being on the show today.

Caroline Woolard:

Yeah, thank you.

Tim Cynova:

Continue the Work. Shouldn't. Suck. LIVE adventure with us on our next episode, when we're joined by Jamie Gahlon and Vijay Mathew, cofounders of HowlRound Theater Commons. Miss us in the meantime? You can download more Work. Shouldn't. Suck. episodes from your favorite podcasting platform of choice and rewatch Work. Shouldn't. Suck. LIVE episodes over on workshouldntsuck.co.

Tim Cynova:

If you've enjoyed the conversation or are just feeling generous today, please consider writing a review on iTunes so that others who might be interested in the topic can join the fun too. Give it a thumbs up or five stars or phone a friend, whatever your podcasting platform of choice offers. If you didn't enjoy this chat, please tell someone about it who you don't like as much! Until next time, thanks for listening.

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Live with Mica Scalin & Noah Scalin! (EP.27)

Last Updated

April 22, 2020

Work. Shouldn't. Suck. LIVE: The Morning(ish) Show with special guests Mica Scalin & Noah Scalin, Another Limited Rebellion. [Live show recorded: April 21, 2020.]

Guests: Mica Scalin & Noah Scalin

Co-Hosts: Tim Cynova & Lauren Ruffin

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Guests

NOAH SCALIN is an artist, author, and activist. He founded Another Limited Rebellion in 2001 with the idea that he could make a living doing what he enjoyed and effect positive change in the world. Since then, Noah has traveled the world bringing his message of creative practice to everyone from incarcerated teenagers to Fortune 500 executives. A graduate of NYU’s Tisch School of The Arts, Noah started his career as the Art Director for Troma Entertainment and Avirex Clothing. Noah's artwork is collected internationally and has been exhibited in numerous museums and galleries, including the Virginia Museum of Fine Arts, the Mütter Museum and NYC’s Times Square. He is the author of six books — most recently Creative Sprint which he co-wrote with his sister/business partner Mica. Noah is also one of the co-hosts of the VPM PBS television program The Art Scene. In 2016 Noah was chosen as the first ever artist-in-residence at the Virginia Commonwealth University’s School of Business and was named the "The Region's Most Creative Individual" by Richmond magazine in 2017.

MICA SCALIN is an innovator in the use of art and media for community engagement and creative development. She was among the first producers hired by NBC Universal Digital Studios, she launched social media strategy at Showtime Networks and consulted on CBS Interactive marketing. She was VP of Communications for the groundbreaking non-profit JDub and has produced documentary films, art exhibitions and cultural events. From grassroots to broadcast, her passion lies in creating cultural experiences that make meaningful connections between people. She has a BFA from the Corcoran School of Art in Washington, DC and studied with Douglas Rushkoff at The New School in NYC. She is the co-author of Creative Sprint: Six 30-day Challenges to Jumpstart Your Creativity. She is also one of the humans behind dOGUMENTA: America’s First Art Show For Dogs.

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Transcript

Tim Cynova:

Hi, I'm Tim Cynova, and welcome to Work. Shouldn't. Suck. LIVE, the morning-ish show. On today's episode, Lauren and I are joined by Mica and Noah Scalin. Mica and Noah lead Another Limited Rebellion, an arts and innovation consultancy. They are our first of several guests duos joining us on the show in the next few weeks. They know each other well and have been collaborating together their entire lives, as, in addition to business partners, they're also siblings. They've done a great deal together and separately, and I pulled a random selection of things from their bios for this intro, including they co-authored the book Creative Sprint: Six 30-Day Challenges to Jumpstart Your Creativity. Noah's Skull-A-Day year is chronicled in his book about it. And Mica is one of the humans behind dOGUMENTA: America's First Art Show for Dogs. Without further ado, Mica and Noah, welcome to the show.

Noah Scalin:

Thanks so glad to be here. I'm still laughing from the green room.

Mica Scalin:

I've never been on a morning show before. This is awesome.

Lauren Ruffin:

We're doing a whole bunch of things totally differently today. The two of you are going to start off by leading us in a creative sprint, right?

Tim Cynova:

Yeah. Micah, do you want to explain what a creative sprint is real quick before we do it?

Mica Scalin:

Yeah, sure. I'll even use the book, which is an out of print, but this is the Creative Sprint book, Six 30-Day Challenges. Not a plug because the book is not in print. But this came out of an online challenge we run and a program we do with our clients that is using small, very small, creative prompts to spur a short, say three-to-five-minute creative action as part of a daily creative practice development process. In other words, do something creative every day for 30 days. We give you a bunch of ideas for what to do. And we're going to do it right now. We thought that's a great way to start this podcast. And we're really exploring themes around creative connecting, which we'll talk about a little more. So here is your prompt. Noah, you want to say the prompt?

Noah Scalin:

Sure. So if your life right now was a Netflix series or some other show or TV show, movie, what would it be called? That's the question. You don't have to answer, you can just ponder that and then answer as you want in the chat or some other way.

Mica Scalin:

So your life right now as a Netflix series title, title for your life.

Tim Cynova:

So say it one more time.

Noah Scalin:

Okay. So it is if your life right now we're a Netflix show or series, what would it be called? We have some of our own thoughts about what these answers could be for ourselves already. So we can share some or we can wait and leave you in suspense till the end.

Mica Scalin:

I think we should wait.

Noah Scalin:

Okay.

Mica Scalin:

I think we should put that out there, just [inaudible 00:02:45]-

Lauren Ruffin:

Yeah. Oh, tantalizing.

Mica Scalin:

... prompt in the chat. And if you come up with one that's good and you want to share it in the chat, go ahead and put them in there as we go. And maybe we'll respond to them or we'll just collect some of the best ones and share them at the end. And I want to hear from Tim and Lauren. And Noah and I, we'll all share ours at the end.

Noah Scalin:

At the end.

Mica Scalin:

As a closing.

Noah Scalin:

The point being though, a creative prompt like that, it just gets your brain going, starts the wheels turning, gets you thinking laterally and spurs additional creativity in your life. So there you go.

Lauren Ruffin:

That's really awesome.

Tim Cynova:

Yeah, that's terrific.

Lauren Ruffin:

I can do this. I think I can handle this. I'm going to be percolating on it.

Tim Cynova:

I'm a little nervous. I'm a little nervous. There's a lot going on this morning.

Lauren Ruffin:

We are nothing if not our personalities. So Tim gave you all the hodgepodge of an introduction, but can you tell our viewers sort of how you typically introduce yourselves, if you were meeting people on the street or just as you're going about your work, anything that you feel like is particularly germane to this conversation?

Noah Scalin:

I usually just say I'm an artist, author, activist, and space pirate. But that doesn't generally help anybody. Mica, how would you describe what we do as a company when you talk to people?

Mica Scalin:

We call ourselves an art and innovation studio, and it's a partnership between my brother and I, Noah, where we look for opportunities to raise the value of the arts in general and artists. And by value, I mean get people paid money. And the way we've been doing that in the past couple of years has been working in leadership development and professional development programs, mostly providing training and speaking engagements, but also sometimes art engagements within very large businesses. So we typically serve large organizations that are already pretty invested in training and development in that way. But we also serve the creative development of the individuals and those organizations, and just the larger community. We help those organizations reach out to their community, whether it's within the organization or outside the organization through creative and arts engagements. That's kind of wordy. Does that make sense?

Tim Cynova:

What does that look like when you work with organizations to do that?

Noah Scalin:

It takes a lot of forms. So we do a lot of work where I'm going in or Mica is going in sometimes and we're doing keynote speeches or we're doing workshops, usually a combination of those, and also then longterm engagements with organizations where we're helping them use the tool we just talked about, the Creative Sprint, to develop the creative capacity of everyone in the organization.

Tim Cynova:

I once had the unfortunate, also fortunate, opportunity to keynote next to Noah. So I'm like talking about arts administration and Noah's like, "Hey, I did this project where I made a skull a day and here's a lot of cool photos about it." I'm like, "God, this is really boring for me to be talking about [inaudible 00:05:23] software and stuff.

Noah Scalin:

Yeah, always go before me.

Tim Cynova:

Yeah.

Mica Scalin:

I mean we seek to entertain. I always feel like this might be a lot of really out there for a lot of people that we communicate with. So a lot of times I'm just like, "Well, we'll at least provide an interesting moment in their day. Maybe that's the best we can do."

Noah Scalin:

You know, at the same time, what I love to be is the weirdest person in the room for the engagements that we're doing. And that's actually a sweet spot for us. I've been in conferences where it's all people that are bankers or people who are doing programming, software programming. These are very serious, very linear types, and I'm coming in doing wacky stuff. But it allows people a way in to talk about the more deeper, important topics that we have to share. And I like that that's engaging in that way because we aren't coming in just doing a fun thing that is considered team building. We're really coming and doing something that's more profound and meaningful for an organization.

Lauren Ruffin:

Can you tell us a little bit about your name? I'm fascinated by the idea of Limited Rebellion. There's a lot in there.

Noah Scalin:

Yeah. Another Limited Rebellion started, originally it was at my design firm, and then when we shifted over to our work as consultants we kept the name. But the name really originated in the late '90s, and it was my sort of punk rock joke because I had been involved in the punk rock scene in New York City, Lower East Side and I was watching people in 1997 dressing like it was 1977. And I was like, "You guys, this is 20 years old and you're still doing this thing." And so I just had this idea about the self-effacing idea... My favorite music at that time, things like Minor Threat, that made fun of themselves and were aware and conscious, but also still doing it anyway. So how can you be an activist but also know the work you can do is but so much and don't give up and keep doing it. And so being funny about that made sense to me, and it's just rolled into our company. And somehow, I think it's still makes sense.

Mica Scalin:

Yeah. We considered should we change the name when Noah and I teamed up and really pivoted what the business was doing from graphic design to this training and consulting. And then we were just like, "No, actually it really makes sense to stay Another Limited Rebellion now inside the context, coming into a context of business, teaching them creativity. So thanks for asking.

Tim Cynova:

Well, and I want to add one thing. Actually, as you were transitioning from graphic design into the new version, Fractured Atlas worked with you to design this cool logo. So Noah, you actually designed the Fracture Atlas logo that's now in the upper whatever corner of the screen. So that's where we first worked together, in that.

Noah Scalin:

Yeah.

Tim Cynova:

It seemed like one of your last graphic design projects because I remember actually being like, "Yeah, can you do this thing?" And you're like, "I'm sort of starting to do this other thing right now."

Noah Scalin:

It's funny because, yeah, I was near the end of that period. But I actually designed your website too.

Tim Cynova:

The original website? Yeah.

Noah Scalin:

The original website.

Tim Cynova:

Or the version a long time ago. Yeah.

Noah Scalin:

Yeah. So it's just funny because I did a lot with you guys. And so I love to come back around, circle back around with this different point in my life and our lives.

Tim Cynova:

Well, and it ended up with someone, it must've been maybe the campaign that you were running, a fundraising campaign, got a print of the United Skulls of America that hung in our Fractured Atlas office until like a couple of months ago when we got rid of the Fractured Atlas office. And that was a big question. We were like, "Who's going to take the print from the office?," because we didn't need it anymore. I don't know who got it, but one day it was just off the wall and someone took it. So we have the logo, we had that print in our office for a number of years. So now that we're live, I'm just relaying that information to you.

Lauren Ruffin:

And if the person who has it is listening, feel free to drop us a line so we know where it ended up.

Tim Cynova:

Yeah, please. I read this really interesting article about right before he died, Biggie left a belt in Vibe or Source's office. He had to change where shoot and forgot his belt. And this belt was passed on from staffer to staffer over like 10 years, and he died like three weeks later. It was like the legend of this belt. And so the writer put out this APB like, "Who of the many people who've turned over into this office have this belt right now?" And eventually, it resurfaced. It's being kept in an undisclosed location like somebody's momma's house basement. But I feel like this print could take on that life.

Noah Scalin:

I like that. If my print is as amazing as big as Biggie's belt, I have a [inaudible 00:09:37].

Tim Cynova:

I bet you didn't think that we'd be covering this on the live stream today.

Noah Scalin:

Not at all.

Lauren Ruffin:

I didn't think so either, but it popped in my head and I went with it.

Tim Cynova:

Yeah. No, I think it's timely. One of the things I really enjoy about the work that you two do is that some of it's seemingly simple. I mean I think back to this Skull-A-Day and then some of the stuff that's come out of Creative Sprints where it's like, "I've just used these sugar packets and something that I interact with every day to create something new and beautiful and different," and I love that as an entry point to just the things that we're surrounded with. You don't have to have a studio and paints or quiet time to compose or space to choreograph, but that everyone has this in them.

Noah Scalin:

Yeah, that's very much on purpose. We really wanted our work to be accessible. We wanted it to be something that anybody could do, that anybody could find time for in their schedule, that anybody could benefit from. We really designed all of the things that we do as a company to have that quality so that it actually works. We don't want it to be something that's like, "Here's the secret sauce of some famous person and it's impossible to replicate because of their life experience and the benefits they had because of where they were born or who they are or who their parents are," whatever it is. That shouldn't be a factor in this type of work.

Lauren Ruffin:

I'm really curious to hear how your work has shifted or changed. Has it over the last couple of weeks?

Mica Scalin:

Noah and I have been thinking about this. We had to reflect on this last week as well. And it was interesting to think like, "Well, obviously there's no more travel to big fancy events with executives coming from all over the world." Because that was definitely something that Noah and/or I would be doing once or twice a month as of last year. Yeah, so that changed. We're not doing that anymore. At least probably not for the rest of two thousand... I don't know if that will ever be something that really happens in the same way as it used to anytime in our... I don't know. Who knows? So that's not happening. And so because of that, our delivery method, how we're getting our content to our clients and community and our language that explains the value right now, has to be changed, you can't keep saying the same thing, and our positioning around that.

Mica Scalin:

But ultimately, the cool thing is what's really stayed the same is that our values, our core message, and our process didn't change, which is cool. We could really rely on that to carry us through this. It took a minute for us to stop and address that. We did have a little bit of I would say an early warning. And I actually want to... This ties into this conversation, but Noah and I had already been talking to some friends and colleagues in Asia and and hearing that things were changing. As of February, I think daily life was already changing for them. And then we had a client that was organizing global events that had to be postponed. That was happening beginning of March. So this is all two weeks before everything hit everybody that it was happening here.

Mica Scalin:

So we were sort of already like, "Oh, this is already sort of changing our Q2 business planning. Uh oh, this is something percolating." I mean we both already work from home, so that wasn't a change. But yeah, the cool thing was we really spent time touching base and talking to people right away as those changes right away emerged. And not only that, people reaching out to us, like clients, friends, colleagues, students, from that corporate client, I mean all areas, reaching out to us and asking us for stuff, asking us to do stuff, asking us to do a program or just telling us that something they learned from us was valuable right now.

Mica Scalin:

So that also helped us see that we didn't need to change that core message. It was still hitting people. In fact, they were thinking about it now in this moment of crisis. So I think it really helped us to realize this core content and message and strategy is really helpful now. Let's just figure out how we can repackage it and deliver it in a way that is meaningful and still has the same value to people. So that's been our little challenge.

Noah Scalin:

I would say, in the first week, I personally got a dozen emails from people saying, "When are you going to do another Creative Sprint? We need something right now." I mean it was a real sense of what we did was on top of mind for people, which was wild to feel like, "Wow, this is how valid this stuff is." We knew it was valid. We knew it was something you needed when there was an emergency, and that's why we always tell people to practice and to do this stuff before there's an emergency. But to see people in the emergency going, "This is the thing we need right now." And we had a great client who wanted who we were about to do something in person and immediately said, "Yes, we can switch to virtual." And we were like, "We have never done that specific thing, virtual [inaudible 00:13:56]."

Noah Scalin:

So we did a really quick turnaround on ,creating a virtual version of one of our most popular workshops and presentations and that was amazing. Then we got a great feedback on it right away. What's crazy is that, literally in February of this year, I was in Portland with hundreds of people speaking to them. And it was just so weird to go like, "I was just in this hotspot area." And then a month later it seems crazy. It's scary to look at a picture of that many people that tightly packed together.

Tim Cynova:

And one of the things that we get a lot of questions about is how do you actually do the thing. I mean we get questions about how do you do the podcast. We get a lot of questions about what platform we use for streaming this live stream, which is StreamYard. We have no sponsorship deal with them, but would maybe take one. But lots of people are wrestling with how does this thing move online. What did you actually use to make something that was built for 3D and put it online? What tools did you use, how did you have to rethink the way you were interacting with people?

Noah Scalin:

Well, I think one of the first things that's really cool is that we had already been working virtually to some degree. So Creative Sprint was already something we used email for. And certainly, we love a live, interactive session. It's really fun to have people in the same room, there's a very specific energy that's generated from it. But we had already been practicing. And Mica and I, because we were working virtually with each other for years and we were not in the same city... So I'm in Richmond, Virginia and she's in Brooklyn, New York. We've been working virtually for many, many years so we were already used to this platform as a way to interact with each other, and we practiced and played in it. So it wasn't an entirely unfamiliar thing.

Mica Scalin:

I know you're talking about tools, but again, in terms of... Tools are one thing, you could have all the tools, but if you are not actually... You know what I mean? You have to think about content as it fits the tools. It's so interesting. But I feel like we've gone back in time for me. Because about 10 years ago, I was in the field of helping people get their heads around how to get content onto digital platforms in the very early stages, doing online video, pre-YouTube, and trying to work with arts organizations and eventually television and stuff. So to me, I kind of feel like we've gone back to the past.

Mica Scalin:

But on the other hand, pushed up against a wall, everyone's figuring it out and figuring it out really amazingly. So I think you can certainly use tools. There's no shortage of tools, and there'll be more tools, but I really think it's thinking about content and format. And Noah and I were lucky because a lot of the content we develop to share with our clients is based on experiences Noah and I had developing creatively using the internet and digital communication tools to develop creative content. So does that make sense?

Lauren Ruffin:

Yeah, I agree with you.

Mica Scalin:

Tool-wise, Zoom. What else? Email, Mailchimp.

Noah Scalin:

Mostly Zoom.

Tim Cynova:

Fax machines.

Noah Scalin:

Well, it's funny because Skull-A-Day was a blog. And so talking about pre all of the current technology, it's amazing that we've got so many ways now and so many rapid, easy tools to use and that. I mean Mica and I both have done live video stuff with our various projects years ago, when it was really hard to do, instead of be able to just jump on this and do this now. It's amazing.

Lauren Ruffin:

I think you're right around the... There's something about having to do things virtually that really strips bare the quality of your content. And to me, that's such an opportunity because the networking and the co-presence that happens in events. If someone doesn't like your stuff, they're still going to hang around the convention hall, or whatever, talking to people, and they're going to leave feeling good even if they hated every single one of your formal presentations. But I think the opportunity here is organizations getting really, really tight about how the quality of their content and the way things are structured, and then perhaps take some of that stuff back out into the real world with them, while also I think maintaining this digital piece hopefully forever because of the accessibility components.

Noah Scalin:

I think the hardest shift for me, just as somebody who is a public speaker and does a lot of presentations to large audiences, I'm used to that audience feedback. And so just my first few talks where there's just this silence and people are staring at you like you're on TV, I want an expressive face to show me you got what I just said, or a nodding head. And sometimes people are just so used to looking at a screen blankly. And so we did do some work to build in some tools to create a little more of that noise so that we get a sense of whether or not this was hitting, this was resonating. If you're going to do something live, you want it to connect with that audience instead of you can just watch a video of me giving a talk. But I want to have a live experience with you when I'm doing a live presentation to a client.

Mica Scalin:

Yeah, and I think we're still exploring. I think, like you said, I love this, you guys, it's two people talking. That provides that thing so you don't have that awkward you're just riffing and it's getting weird. So it's that having another person.

Tim Cynova:

I mean it still happens, Mica.

Lauren Ruffin:

Yeah, we still have plenty of awkward, like three minutes.

Tim Cynova:

[inaudible 00:18:23].

Mica Scalin:

Having another individual live with you rather than just you and this void. Yeah, and we definitely worked on, again, we're still learning and collaborating with people to figure it out, which is great because we get to work with these really, really big companies that are often very technical anyway. They're game. We're like, "What are your best practices right now? Let's explore some of them together so that we can learn new stuff." And that's I think also what it was always about with our clients, this collaborative mindset. I'm excited because I think it has the opportunity to even be a little more so right now because they're also open to that. And I think we'll-

Noah Scalin:

I mean Mica is just doing a practice or an experiment right now on Instagram, which I really was excited to see. She's doing collaborative art making. I shouldn't speak for you. You can talk about it.

Mica Scalin:

You know, I see these spaces. Noah and I have always used the web as a creative development tool. And it was something I always tried to hammer into people's heads 10 years ago. And I think people are getting it now too. What do people like? The rawness, the authenticity. Like you said, if it's too polished on the internet, it seems fake and people actually don't like it. It's actually not what they want. They want to have a nice, polished streaming experience when they sit down and Netflix for seven hours. But when you're on the internet, it needs to feel live, authentic, or else people are going to drop off if it's not this insanely-crafted experience. So I think that liveness and that question mark of, "What's going to happen next?," is crucial to creating this content.

Mica Scalin:

So I think it's a space for experimentation, and I hope that other artists and creatives... I think they are doing that now and I think that's exciting. So I'm doing it myself. I'm [inaudible 00:19:55] just Creative Sprint prompts with people. We have a big community on Instagram from those Creative Sprints. So just calling on folks, and we just do one of the prompts together for about 20 minutes on Instagram live. And that's the experiment this week. We'll see where that goes next week.

Tim Cynova:

Nice. That's great. I've had conversations with my classes that I teach around what does the online experience look like. Unfortunately, we started this early in the semester about what's an online meeting look like, how is it different or similar from an in person meeting. And it's been interesting now that everyone's gone online in classes and meetings, and thinking about how do you manage your energy, how do you include different voices. When you used to be in the room, you could see people shift. It's been really interesting to watch late night talk show hosts who you can see this evolution of, "I'm just talking a screen, there's nothing coming back at me." And over the past couple of weeks how they've had to adapt the content and the way they interact to adjust for 500 people not giving them immediate feedback.

Tim Cynova:

But I think from a participant standpoint, how you can actually signal this through a Zoom call. You might need to nod a little bit more than you would, make sure you're not scowling. But it's been in real time really interesting. Well, it's been a really interesting time period. And one of the things that's come from that is, how do we figure out how to engage virtually now and what does that look like? And then I think, what does this look like going forward? I think Laura and I, this is one of the questions that we really have been sitting with a lot. What does live creativity look like for our sector, broadly speaking? When things start to open up, how can we hold onto the things that we think are really valuable right now that were "impossible" to do two months ago to make the world, this sector, a better place so that it's more inclusive, people can thrive?

Tim Cynova:

And that's one of the really promising things I think that we have an opportunity to come out of this with. Also really challenging as we're all going through this as human beings and just the uncertainty of life and what's happening to hold these at the same time.

Noah Scalin:

I mean obviously what's hard is we don't know what the other side of this is going to look like at all. So to guess what anybody's going to do in it, it's hard. But I think the opportunity here, and we talked about Creative Sprint, and when we do them we usually do this 30-day length of them. And part of that is because of that connection to this idea of habit forming. And I've been thinking a lot about the fact that this is happening long enough that we can develop new habits within it. Because if it was two weeks, we'd go back to normal. But with many months of it, I feel like, "Hey, these will become ingrained things," and ingrained things that are real good opportunities, right?

Noah Scalin:

Which is like, "Hey, we've been really like, "No, this has to happen in person.' Well, guess what? It doesn't. Every job can suddenly be done virtually." And, "Look, people aren't going to be able to get their work done." They can, and then they can have a much better home work-life balance that was impossible for people. And I think not everybody wants to be home all day, especially if their kids are home all day too, and those circumstances, but that has given people the ability to see, "Gee." I just heard from somebody who said, "I might not be sick enough to take a sick day, but I might work from home that day." That's going to make their life a lot better to be able to have that flexibility.

Mica Scalin:

I think it speaks to questioning some of the choices that were maybe arbitrary or based on somebody else's other needs. It's always a good time for questions, if you ask me, but obviously there's certain things that are set in place for ease. We call it expanding your defaults, but there are certain default settings that we use for ease, which we need to just have things be a little smooth in our day, not think about every single thing. And right now, at a time where we're being forced to actually... I've been thinking about this. Behavior change is very, very hard. It's a whole science of studying adult behavior change. Very difficult to do. Got to intentionally do it. Right now, we're being forced to change so many behaviors, so many habits, so many daily things. It's obviously very taxing on the brain and exhausting I think a lot of brain resources of humans right now, for sure. But I do think once then you've established a new habit, it's very hard to go back. So I think about that. Some of those habits, once they're changed and established here, which ones are going to stay?

Mica Scalin:

Because I had a friend last night, he was like, "Oh, everything's going to go back. Six months, everyone's going to be like," da, da, da. I was like, "No, man. No, it's not," because people don't switch like that.

Noah Scalin:

Yeah, and to build on what Mica is saying, we see this all the time with our work. If we're going to a space and introducing the artists' set of tools to people who have not been practicing them and haven't been utilizing them in their lives, there's a lot of resistance. And we set up things to make it easier for people to try and take risks. But it's scary for people, and people don't like to get out of their comfort zone. And literally we'll say to people all the time, "Leadership's going to have to make this a requirement for you to do it."

Noah Scalin:

Well, guess what? Now it's a requirement. Everything's required. We all have to do it, no matter how much you didn't want to do it or learn Zoom, or whatever it is, you got to do it. And so that's been really cool to see that correlation there between what we were already doing and that people are forced to give this stuff a try. And when you try it you go, "Oh, it wasn't as bad as I thought," or, "Oh, I learned something or I gained this. Wow, this is a cool thing. I'm more creative now. I didn't realize-

Mica Scalin:

And seeing what limitations really are limitations and which ones are arbitrary, which ones are real, which ones maybe aren't that limiting after all.

Noah Scalin:

And when you say limitations, we should embrace limitations as part of our work. And the reason we say that is that really it's the boundaries that create creativity. It's the things that you bounce off of and push off of that give you those interesting responses. And so it's like this is just one more of those box-like sides.

Tim Cynova:

We have one question about creativity from our coworker Molaundo, who we need to give a big shout out to. Molaundo has been live tweeting all of our episodes for us so I'll make sure we slide in Molaundo’s question here. This is specifically to Noah. My introduction to your work was your artwork on Instagram, which I think is awesome. I'm a painter too and was wondering what is the inspiration for your style and color palette? And we're going to go with that question. Then Lauren and I will share with everyone, as well as you two, our Netflix series, and then we land the plane.

Noah Scalin:

Oh my gosh. We could talk for another hour.

Lauren Ruffin:

You know what? We really could.

Tim Cynova:

Yeah.

Lauren Ruffin:

[inaudible 00:25:42].

Tim Cynova:

I mean we won't, but we could.

Lauren Ruffin:

Tim is going to use the powers of God to rip us apart.

Noah Scalin:

Again. Okay, fine. [inaudible 00:25:50].

Tim Cynova:

Yeah, so go with Molaundo’s question, yeah.

Noah Scalin:

Molaundo, thank you for that wonderful and very kind question. As an artist, I work with these days mostly everyday materials and I'm always just experimenting and practicing, trying different things. And one of the things that I developed was this idea of working with clothing to make portraiture, and so I started using clothing to do it. And when I did that, clothing comes in a certain range of colors. Obviously, it seems like every color, but when you get down to it, the clothing that I would collect would be these bright, colorful things and then this, whatever, blacks and tans and stuff. So that would become my palette just because of what I had to work with. And after I did a few of those, I really liked that pallet.

Noah Scalin:

And then I realized when I was going to do some painting that I wanted to stick with the palette that I developed. Because I liked the fact that when I've got this one set of colors, if I'm doing portraiture, which I like to focus on, it [inaudible 00:26:35] about skin tone and it becomes the same color palette for everybody. And so no matter whose portrait I'm doing, they all have the same sort of colors to create them, and I really like that. And I realized that part of what's happening when I'm doing this work, and I do this when I work with stickers as well, because stickers come in these really bright color palettes too. So it's a similar one in terms of all these really intense colors being used to make maybe more subtle colors or colors that you wouldn't necessarily expect them to combine into.

Noah Scalin:

But when I do that, I realized recently that I'm really seeing things in black and white and gray basically, that I translate color from hue to value. I think that's the right transition there, yeah. So it's basically light to dark rather than blue or red or yellow, et cetera. And so that's what's happening in my head when I make those pieces.

Tim Cynova:

Nice. Thanks for that. Molaundo, thank you for the question.

Noah Scalin:

[crosstalk 00:27:18].

Tim Cynova:

All right, so let's land the plane. If your life right now we're a Netflix show or series, what would it be called? Who wants to go first?

Noah Scalin:

You guys have an idea?

Mica Scalin:

I'll do one. Dance like three or four of your friends are watching on Zoom.

Tim Cynova:

Mine's a riff on a well-known show. Noah, it's called Who Wants to be an Introvert?

Mica Scalin:

Lauren?

Lauren Ruffin:

Mine is, first of all, shot in all black and white. It's a play on the first three letters in isolation and it is In Search Of Isolation because I am really accustomed to spending time by myself during the day. I'm now sharing the house with people I love very much, but who also are working my very last nerve, just because they're here. They're great people. I just don't want to be around anyone.

Noah Scalin:

Get out of my house.

Lauren Ruffin:

Yeah. So yeah, I'm in search of isolation really.

Tim Cynova:

All I could come up with is this chair. It would be shot pretty much like you're seeing now. Just me sitting in this chair for 30 to 60 minutes each episode, maybe engaging with someone online or just staring at the monitor.

Lauren Ruffin:

[inaudible 00:28:21] of chair.

Tim Cynova:

Yes.

Noah Scalin:

Sort of a Warholesque [inaudible 00:28:24]. I like it.

Tim Cynova:

Yeah, that's right. Exactly, Noah. That's exactly what I was going for, yeah.

Mica Scalin:

Noah, you one-upped mine, I just noticed on our thing. You wrote, "So you think you can dance with three or four of your friends watching on Zoom." That's even better. [inaudible 00:28:38]. Super offer. Zoom dance parties. Super offer guys, super offer. I tried it.

Noah Scalin:

And you shorten it, S-Y-T-Y-D or something.

Tim Cynova:

Well, I think that moment right there is how we should end this episode. It has been an absolute joy to get to spend 45 minutes with both of you. Thank you so much for taking time in your day to share the creative prompt and to share the time.

Noah Scalin:

Yeah, love it. Anytime.

Tim Cynova:

Continue the Work. Shouldn't. Suck. LIVE adventure with us on our next episode when we're joined by Caroline Woolard. Miss us in the meantime? You can download more Work. Shouldn't. Suck. episodes from your favorite podcasting platform of choice and re-watch Work. Shouldn't. Suck. LIVE episodes over on workshouldntsuck.co. If you've enjoyed the conversation or are just feeling generous today, please consider writing a review on iTunes so that others who might be interested in the topic and join the fun too. Give it a thumbs up or five stars or phone a friend, whatever your podcasting platform of choice offers. If you didn't enjoy this chat, please tell someone about it, who you don't like as much. Until next time, thanks for listening.

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Live with Kristina Newman-Scott! (EP.25)

Last Updated

April 16, 2020

Work. Shouldn't. Suck. LIVE: The Morning(ish) Show with special guest Kristina Newman-Scott, President, BRIC. [Live show recorded: April 15, 2020.]

Guest: Kristina Newman-Scott

Co-Hosts: Tim Cynova & Lauren Ruffin

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Guest

KRISTINA NEWMAN-SCOTT serves as President of BRIC, a leading arts and media institution anchored in Downtown Brooklyn whose work spans a contemporary visual and performing arts, media, and civic action. She is the first immigrant and first woman of color to serve in this position and one of the very few women of color leading a major New York cultural institution.

Under her tenure, BRIC embarked on an ambitious human-centered process in pursuit of clarity of purpose in the form of a new four-year Strategic Plan. That process led to a rearticulated mission, informed by the institution's impact and legacy, and a newly articulated vision statement, guided by aspirational goals. In addition, she led a renewed commitment to equity, diversity, and inclusivity in every aspect of the organization.

Previously, Newman-Scott served as the Director of Culture and State Historic Preservation Officer for the State of Connecticut; Director of Marketing, Events and Cultural Affairs for the City of Hartford; Director of Programs at the Boston Center for the Arts; and Director of Visual Arts at Hartford's Real Art Ways.

Ms. Newman-Scott's awards and recognitions include being a National Arts Strategies Creative Community Fellow, A Hive Global Leadership Selectee, and a Next City Urban Vanguard. In June 2018, Americans for the Arts presented Kristina with the Selina Roberts Ottum Award, which recognizes an individual working in arts management who exemplifies extraordinary leadership qualities.

A TEDx speaker, guest lecturer, visiting curator, Kristina currently serves on the Boards of the New England Foundation for the Arts, National Arts Strategies, and Downtown Brooklyn Partnership. She resides in Bed-Stuy, Brooklyn, with her husband and two children.

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Transcript

Tim Cynova:

Hi. I'm Tim Cynova, and welcome to Work. Shouldn't. Suck. Live, the morning-ish show. On today's episode, Lauren Ruffin and I are joined by Kristina Newman-Scott. Kristina currently serves as the president of BRIC, a leading arts and media institution anchored in downtown Brooklyn whose work spans contemporary visual and performing arts, media, and civic action. Prior to BRIC, Kristina served as the Director of Culture and State Historic Preservation Officer for the state of Connecticut, Director of Marketing, Events, and Cultural Affairs for the city of Hartford, Director of Programs at the Boston Center for the Arts, and Director of Visual Arts at Hartford's Real Art Ways. She has received a myriad of awards, honors, and recognition including in 2018 when she was presented with the Selina Roberts Ottum award, which recognizes an individual working in arts management who exemplifies extraordinary leadership qualities. Without further ado, Kristina, welcome to the show.

Kristina Newman-Scott:

Hey, good morning. How are you?

Lauren Ruffin:

We are doing well.

Tim Cynova:

Doing well.

Lauren Ruffin:

It's good to see you.

Kristina Newman-Scott:

It's good to see you. Thank you for having me on. I keep editing my bio, and I'm just going to keep working on that, make it shorter and tighter and shorter. I'm going to get it into a tweet version soon, I promise.

Lauren Ruffin:

Yeah, no I keep wondering, "How do we talk about ourselves in 20 seconds or less?" It's impossible.

Kristina Newman-Scott:

Yeah I know. We have to figure that out.

Lauren Ruffin:

Yeah.

Kristina Newman-Scott:

That's another show that you could focus on.

Lauren Ruffin:

Yeah, maybe just chopping people's bios.

Kristina Newman-Scott:

Yes. Let's do it. All of us-

Lauren Ruffin:

Yeah, the Morning Chop.

Kristina Newman-Scott:

Morning Chop. I need it. I know people that need it. Okay.

Lauren Ruffin:

Yeah. I didn't realize you were a Hartford person the night we had the 91 connection.

Kristina Newman-Scott:

Yeah. The 91 connection, yes. Yes. Hartford was where, when I moved from Jamaica, that's where I moved to. Hartford, Connecticut.

Lauren Ruffin:

Yeah. Boom town.

Kristina Newman-Scott:

I love me some Hartford. I learned so much, honestly. Yeah, learned so much. I have a lot of love for Hartford.

Lauren Ruffin:

Cool, so how are you? How's your community doing? And I know that you're hold up with family right now, so how's everyone doing during the pandemic?

Kristina Newman-Scott:

I mean I think we're blessed. I feel really fortunate to have my family with me. My mother-in-law, I work with her in her home in Connecticut. My 10 year old is doing the online school thing, as most people's children are. I think that my two year old, it's a little bit trickier because God bless daycares because me working full-time virtually and my husband working full-time virtually and then our two year old is being ... Nickelodeon Jr is her babysitter, and so I, every day, am struggling with the guilt when I have to plug on for work, and we're working more than full hours. I'm sure you've heard this. You're doing it yourself. I'm working more now than I was when I was at the office, and I was working a lot then, but I literally take the remotes, and I'm like, "Mommy's going to work now," and I go, "Abby Hatcher," and it brings it up, and I press play, and then I go to work, and then I'm like, "Don't call the police." You know what I mean? I feel how a mom might feel if I was leaving the house and closing the door. "I'll be right back. Don't move," and so even though I could laugh about it, it's really stressful because I'm like, "I'm not paying attention to my toddler. What is going to happen?"

Lauren Ruffin:

Yeah. I've been thinking a lot. I can't imagine, and our kids are 9 and 12 now, but I just think back to the occasional day where I had to work from home seven years ago, and it was just so hard with little little kids.

Kristina Newman-Scott:

It is.

Lauren Ruffin:

But everyone who's doing it now, this is not the way that we are supposed to work virtually. This is just not fidelity to the model. It's bad all around.

Kristina Newman-Scott:

Yes and if we keep this up, work will suck.

Lauren Ruffin:

Yeah, exactly.

Kristina Newman-Scott:

We need to figure out this situation and come together, and so at BRIC, what we've been doing is we've been learning. We have what we call our virtual stoop meetings at BRIC House. Every week, the entire staff gathers together for a stoop meeting because we have this fantastic stoop in our building, so about 100 of us, a little more than 100 of my staff members, that's my staff team size, get together, and we talk; and it's fairly quick. It's a weekly check-in, and then we have a more robust one that's an hour long, but we've been doing these virtual stoops with the staff, and we've been kind of hearing about what works; and so I've been trying to build kind of quiet work time because what I found that was happening was just a constant stream of online meetings, so you were Zooming from 9am to 7pm, and then you're not working. You're just Zooming.

Kristina Newman-Scott:

And then you're like, "Oh right. I live with people. I have a family. What are you people doing?" And so we've now created work quiet time. Lunch is sacred. Let people eat with their families and afternoons, so we're figuring it out, and we keep learning, and my team, Kyle and Scott, they have no fair in telling me what is working and what is not working.

Lauren Ruffin:

That's awesome.

Kristina Newman-Scott:

Yeah.

Lauren Ruffin:

That's awesome. You're really rooted in the Brooklyn arts community as well. What are you hearing from that community of artists?

Kristina Newman-Scott:

It's hard. I mean artists have lost their gigs. I mean they depend ... They're part of the gig economy, and a lot of the performing artists, visual artists who had either exhibition shows, just the artists that we were lined up to present, everything's shifting, and I really feel for the artists in our community; and so what we've been doing is transferring as much as possible, everything that we were going to be presenting at BRIC House, to virtual programming so that we can keep artists paid.

Kristina Newman-Scott:

So, for instance, we're doing the poetry slam that we do with Mahogany Browne and Jai Poetic. The Brooklyn Poetry Slam started at BRIC, and so we want to make sure that those folks continue to engage with us and that we're paying them for their work, and so we're just really trying to transition as much as possible and as it makes sense into virtual programming, but a lot of our pairs, it's not good. It's just not good. The news is ... It's really rough, especially those that are dependent on tickets and do massive productions and presentations. It's really not good, but we've all applied for every grant, every loan.

Kristina Newman-Scott:

Rick has a research page on our website for artists that ... I know that there are so many resources being shared out there, but we have been keeping a list of resources for the field with a focus on artists, and we also have a resource list for our immediate community in downtown Brooklyn, Fort Greene area, so that people can see where they can go above and beyond arts and culture resources but food services, home services. We've been trying to get all of that information and keep it one place for folks to easily access, so ... Yeah.

Tim Cynova:

What does the transition look like for you in the organization? Because part of BRIC, you have a television studio. You have studios to stream podcasts, produce and stream podcasts, so you have some of that infrastructure that allows for this transition, but it is still a physical space where I imagine most people work there physically during the week, so what has this transition looked like over the past couple of weeks to be an almost or entirely virtual organization?

Kristina Newman-Scott:

In the midst of this craziness, it really is, in some ways, an exciting moment for BRIC because our board just approved our new strategic plan that guides the next four years of our work, and within that plan, there is a key focus on technology and the work that we're doing in the digital realm, and this has just fast tracked ... And I'm hearing that from some of my peers too. They're like, "We were going to do this, but we're doing it now. We had this slated for 2021, but ..." so in many ways with BRIC, we've been in the media business for 40 years, but there has been an exciting moment for us as we've been rapid-prototyping some of these online experiences that we're able to think about, and we're already learning about what's going to have longevity, and so we're really looking at our capacity, what we're capable of doing, and how we're going to continue doing all the things that we're learning about, that we're excited about.

Kristina Newman-Scott:

Something that happened right when we started to go to remote work at BRIC that we really got excited about is the fact that because we're a broadcast center and a public access center, we're able to connect with television stations anywhere in the world, so of course you can do online YouTube. You can do Instagram Live and all of that, but we could actually patch you in to MSNBC. We can do this live talk on television stations in countries, so an example of that is something that we piloted a few months ago with VP Records where we did the celebration of their Reggae Gold. It was an anniversary moment for them, and at BRIC, we were able to be live in over one million homes on the island of Jamaica.

Kristina Newman-Scott:

Now that's a game-changer because people that have our ... We're in, what, we're in about a million homes right now. A lot of those folks that we reach don't have access to high-speed internet. They're getting left behind. There's a digital divide, right? There's a gap there, and so we really treasure the folks that are still accessing content in this way through cable, and so we're thinking a lot about that digital divide. We're thinking a lot about how to make sure they don't get left out. We're ensuring that what we do live on Instagram or Facebook can be patched into the channels. We're looking at how we can continue to be of service with the Department of Education. Could we bring educational tools to channels, to kids who don't have high-speed internet and can't log on for school? So we're thinking about a lot of those things and having those conversations now.

Lauren Ruffin:

Yeah, and you can prototype that right at home with your two year old, right?

Kristina Newman-Scott:

Well if it was Abby Hatcher teaching the class, yes. If it was an actual class, it would not happen. She's already given up on circle time. We did circle time every morning at 9 o'clock for two weeks.

Lauren Ruffin:

Oh wow.

Kristina Newman-Scott:

And it was great, and then one day, she was like, "And I'm done. Go."

Lauren Ruffin:

"Enough of the circle time."

Kristina Newman-Scott:

No more circle time so ... Yep. Yep. That's how it goes. What are you guys seeing and learn- What are you guys excited about? I love that Work. Shouldn't. Suck. is now this wonderful experience, right? And so what's happening on your end?

Lauren Ruffin:

You want to go first, Tim? You want me to go?

Kristina Newman-Scott:

C'mon, people.

Tim Cynova:

Go ahead, yeah.

Lauren Ruffin:

No so one, I mean this has been ... Hearing how everyone is sort of rapidly adjusting, rapid prototyping new things is ... I just think it's such an opportunity. I know it's daunting and really really hard, but hearing how adaptive and nimble humans are and organizations can be, I think, is fantastic. There are so many things that I hope organizations hold onto over the long haul, so that's really cool, and then I'm also thinking a lot about how our sector, the culture sector, in so many ways [inaudible 00:12:22], and I'm really thinking through, "How do we translate, for organizations that might not be as tech-savvy as BRIC or as a Fractured Atlas, how do we do the knowledge transfer, over the next probably 18 to 24 months, to help organizations continue to sort of meet their mission in the work they do convening?" So my brain is actually really excited right now. I felt like I had hit kind of a boring patch at the beginning of this year. I was kind of like, "Oh ho hum," but, yeah, for me this has been a really energizing time.

Kristina Newman-Scott:

Yeah, I would agree with that. It forces us, right? It forces us to show up in the world in a new way, and that is exciting. What about you, Tim?

Tim Cynova:

Yeah I've really enjoyed the daily conversations that we're having. I mean we started this as sort just a way to connect with people outside of our homes and, at the same time, sort of a time capsule if you will for the time that we're living in; and I think back to three weeks ago when Jamie Bennett was our first guest, and all of us took that as-

Lauren Ruffin:

Aw, Jamie Bennett.

Tim Cynova:

Yeah it was terrific-

Kristina Newman-Scott:

I heart Jamie Bennett.

Tim Cynova:

... But I thought, "We should check in with Jamie," because so much stuff has happened since we had that first conversation, and to talk through, in real time, with people who are leading organizations, people who are experiencing this in different ways around North America and to engage with people who are around the world, and the chat has been really meaningful ...

Kristina Newman-Scott:

Good.

Tim Cynova:

... Experience and to think, "What is next? How can we use this opportunity to hold onto the things that are really important to build that thing?" And now that we've proven that you can get work done without someone watching you, and you can do things in a remote setting, how can we, as organizations, as a sector, as a country, as humanity keep these things; and what do we need to do to make sure that we don't lose that once things start to open up again? And so that's been really exciting to sort of live in that space and talk to people about, "How do we co-create a future where everyone can thrive?"

Kristina Newman-Scott:

Yes, I love that. I'm here for that. BRIC is very much ... Our work is rooted in thinking and behaving in that way, and it's a simple thing, but it's exciting for us is when this happened, so many of our pairs, because they weren't accessing technology in this way ... We were able to work really quickly with my outstanding education team to create free classes online for other culturals and small business owners to learn how to use technology whether it's, "Do as mini doc on your iPhone," or it's, "Edit this piece," and we made it free to folks. All of the Downtown Brooklyn Arts Alliance were part of it. It's been really interesting, another way for us to understand what people actually need. What are the tools that people need? What are they interested in? And, to your point, how can we continue to just be of service and hold some of these things far beyond this crisis?

Lauren Ruffin:

Yeah. Kristina, are those resources still available on your website?

Kristina Newman-Scott:

They are.

Lauren Ruffin:

Oh awesome.

Kristina Newman-Scott:

They are on our website, so if you go to www.bricartsmedia.org - Thanks. Hey now, you guys are profession-

Lauren Ruffin:

Add production value on this.

Kristina Newman-Scott:

Hey. I appreciate it. bricartsmedia.org. You can see our calendar, and so on our calendar and if you click on education, you'll be able to navigate and find a lot of the information there. Another thing that we did pretty quickly around mid-March was to launch a Creative Future Relief fund which was to raise money to support our transition to online programming, thereby helping us to continue to support artists and to keep our staff whole as much as possible as we do that transition, so our Creative Future Relief fund is on our ... You can learn more about that as well on our website that you so wonderfully popped up a second ago.

Tim Cynova:

Kristina, you talked earlier about your strategic plan that you had just wrapped up, and then how many pieces have just been tossed into the air that you thought were all sort of set, or how are you processing this now that you've concluded that and things have started to change? Or maybe they haven't.

Kristina Newman-Scott:

It's interesting. I don't think there are so many pieces up in the air. I think that what this has done outside of the fast tracking our exploration of what we can do digitally and how we present visual performing and media using new technology ... We'll always present in our space. We have a beautiful space, a 40,000-square-foot space. That's not going away. You know what I mean? But I don't think there will ever be a moment again that we aren't simultaneously engaging people virtually while doing that, and I think that's true for many organizations, but what's exciting about this moment is that in many ways, it reinforces all the things that we've said in our strategic plan in terms of our mission, vision, and values; and so just having that center us every single day ...

Kristina Newman-Scott:

Because at the beginning of this, I think people were all like, "Wait, you want me to talk to artists online? You want to do ..." It felt like a lot to process. My staff are like, "What do you mean? You want me to go virtual how?" And then it was almost like they were thinking of themselves as a new organization of, "Wait, we don't do this this way," so it was hard. Outside of my media team, it was hard for my visual and performing folks to process that, but the more that we just leaned into what we said we're about and our strategic plan as a guide is the more it became really clear. Everything's centered in the mission, so we're not changing that. We're just shifting how someone receives this, receives the information, accesses the resources, shares in the experience; so it really has rooted us, and I'm very thankful that we have that at this moment as an organization because it's our landing pad.

Lauren Ruffin:

I think that piece about, and I have been thinking a whole lot about this, the accessibility upside to forcing people to offer everything with a ... Of course we're all online right now, but moving forward for the rest of our lives, everything that you do in real life ... And not that this isn't real life. We're obviously here, but everything you're doing face-to-face, you should also have some sort of online component, and I just think the quality of thinking about live captioning, all of that, transcribing things, the various modalities of learning and especially adult learning and adult cognition, we're going to get so much more sophisticated on that right now, and that really excites me. I met Tom Chi. Did you meet Tom Chi, Tim? Tim, did you meet Tom? No? Okay.

Kristina Newman-Scott:

Tim, did you meet Tom? Tim, Tom. Tom, Tim. Years ago, I was part of this Hive global leadership. It's a massive gathering together of folks from all over the world for an intensive three-day experience, and Tom Chi, he was the head of Google X, and he talked a lot about rapid prototyping for community development, and this is maybe now seven years ago at this point or six maybe, and he talked about doing being the best way of thinking and learning, and I just have loved that line. I know he's not the only one that says that, and we all know that because of our experiences to be true. I mean how do you learn how to ride a bicycle? No one's going to YouTube, okay? "Let me YouTube how to ride a bicycle."

Kristina Newman-Scott:

So I love that. I live in that, and I recall that in this moment because even though there's all kinds of things that we could be doing ... We need to do a lot of things to learn, but I love that we are also kind of just grass-roots, feeling our way through some of it and just having that immediate gut response and being able to share that with each other as we navigate the future, and we are blessed because we do have this extraordinary media team that they have so much knowledge, and we can lean on them, but that idea of doing is the best way of thinking and learning is so true, and I'm actually really appreciating that right now.

Tim Cynova:

Yeah. You do have some of the fanciest studios.

Kristina Newman-Scott:

Yeah. I love [crosstalk 00:21:22]. I know. I have some fancy studios.

Tim Cynova:

I mean I'm envious of BRIC studios.

Kristina Newman-Scott:

Listen. You can do Work. Shouldn't. Suck. When we're all back together again, if you ever want to do it in the studio, you can come down to Fulton Street in Brooklyn and come and do it. You can get your Visa. Come to Brooklyn.

Tim Cynova:

They are some fancy studios, Lauren.

Lauren Ruffin:

I have never been, so I'm-

Kristina Newman-Scott:

You've never been?

Lauren Ruffin:

No.

Kristina Newman-Scott:

We've got to get you from Albuquerque to Brooklyn.

Lauren Ruffin:

Yeah I feel like I've done my time in New York.

Kristina Newman-Scott:

What?

Lauren Ruffin:

Although I watched Ghostbusters last night, and I had a couple moments where I was like, "Oh I kind of miss New York," and then I was like, "What's happening?"

Kristina Newman-Scott:

You know you miss New York. You know you miss New York.

Lauren Ruffin:

"What's happening?"

Kristina Newman-Scott:

No one's ever done their time in ... [crosstalk 00:22:08]-

Lauren Ruffin:

Yeah, I don't know. I know people think it's really energizing as a city, but I think I need a slower pace.

Kristina Newman-Scott:

You've been energized?

Lauren Ruffin:

I think I need a slower pace. I need quiet.

Kristina Newman-Scott:

Look. I appreciate that. I will say it's a big shift being in Connecticut right now, and even though I was living so long in Connecticut, it's definitely such a shift. There is such a wonderful energy and pace to Brooklyn, and I miss that, and I love that, and it's funny because I have these two kids. One's total suburbanite, my 10 year old, and Charlie, the two almost three year old is total New York because she doesn't know, right? And even though she's three, we were taking a walk the other day, and I'm like, "We're walking." And she's like, "Where we walking?" I'm saying, "We're just going to walk around the block back to our house." She goes, "We're going to Brooklyn? We're walking back to Brooklyn?" And I'm like, "No, Baby. We're not walking back to Brooklyn. Can't walk there. Mommy's not that fit," but she doesn't know that, and Kendall's like, "Oh, I remember all these trees," but Charlie's like, "Get me back to Brooklyn. Yes."

Tim Cynova:

Well Kristina, you've worked in a lot of different environments. You've worked in government. You worked in art centers, and we talked about shorter bios. Probably your government titles are not helping out for shorter bios. It seems like you're just like, "Here's 18 words in the same title."

Kristina Newman-Scott:

Yes, yes.

Tim Cynova:

But what has the experience been like? Because you came from your role at the state of Connecticut to Brooklyn, and what's similar? What's different? Have you been talking to people at your former gigs and how they're adjusting or adapting to this new environment?

Kristina Newman-Scott:

What's similar? What's different? Well there's so much that is different. I mean coming from being the head of a state arts agency, and you're living and functioning within a very rigid government structure, and then I was also embedded in the Department of Economic and Community Development; I think that while there's so much different about how a state or a municipality even before that when I was working for the city of Hartford ... They're so much different there compared to a non-profit. There's a lot of similarities in terms of structure of thought, so to speak so, "How are we adding value to our community? How are we dismantling barriers? Thinking about barriers to access, how are we investing in the people that we are here to serve?"

Kristina Newman-Scott:

All of those things that I was thinking about at the Connecticut Office of the Arts are the exact same things that we think about every day at BRIC, right, as an institution, and I think that's really great; and I think it's helped me too because dealing with this crisis for me, I find that I'm a pretty high-energy person at work. I know that's shocking, but I'm pretty high-energy, but I've learned that, when it comes to crisis, I actually slow down; and so that comes from my experience in government and watching mayors and governors and commissioners and other city political leaders and leaders having to respond to crisis, right, time and time again; and so that has been some learning that has been helpful for me in this moment to ensure that I'm not moving too fast because you can move too fast.

Kristina Newman-Scott:

With all good intention, you could just move so fast you trip over yourself for no good reason, right? And so right now, I'm lucky to have the team that I have because we're being very paced and strategic, and while we're rapid prototyping a lot, we're still taking that time to be like, "We don't need to rush for rush's sake, but we're going to do this because it's right, and it feels right, and we're going to test it. We might fail or not," but so I think that learning for me has been great. At the end of the day, I love that I work at an organization that cares more about ourselves as an institution and really cares about community, and that's one of the core reasons why I packed up everybody and moved to Brooklyn because BRIC truly is a part of the community that we're in, and you hear that from the people that come to us; so I still very much feel like I work within community development. Does that make sense?

Lauren Ruffin:

Yeah.

Kristina Newman-Scott:

I feel like I work within community development. I think BRIC is ... Not only did it start off as an early creative place-making strategy. I know we didn't talk about ourselves that way, but BRIC literally started as a creative place-making experiment in 1975 with BRIC Celebrate Brooklyn Festival. You think about it coming out of a mayor's office and looking at a place geographically, Prospect Park, a at time where Brooklyn was thought of as unsafe, and then they were like, "Okay we want to use music as a catalyst for change and arts as a way to remind people of the beauty of their community," and with that, BRIC Celebrate Brooklyn was born. That's creative place-making right there, and so our institution just grew out of that. That's our genesis story, and so in many ways, community, being of service, and civic action is a part of who we are, and I just love that.

Lauren Ruffin:

Yeah. Tim, was it Deborah Cullinan who gave us the suitcase metaphor?

Kristina Newman-Scott:

I love her too.

Lauren Ruffin:

She's great. She's awesome.

Kristina Newman-Scott:

Yeah, she's awesome.

Lauren Ruffin:

So I'm thinking about ... She gave us a suitcase, and it was, "Right now, you have a chance to sort of think about what you want in your suitcase in terms of workplace practices or life practices. What are you leaving, and what are you taking with you, or what do you [crosstalk 00:28:29] learn, and you're bringing with you? If you were packing the rest-of-your-life suitcase right now ..."

Kristina Newman-Scott:

Oh my God.

Lauren Ruffin:

"... What's one thing you're leaving behind, and what's one thing you're taking with you?"

Kristina Newman-Scott:

Oh my God. That is such a tough question. Well always take Spanx. Always pack Spanx, I'm just going to say, so that's coming.

Lauren Ruffin:

Okay Spanx are your freebie. that's just your one freebie.

Kristina Newman-Scott:

Thank you because got to get those. Oh my God. The rest-of-my-life suitcase?

Lauren Ruffin:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Kristina Newman-Scott:

And I have to pack that right now?

Lauren Ruffin:

What's the one thing? It's work stuff. This, in theory, is a work livestream.

Kristina Newman-Scott:

Can I call a friend? Let's see. The rest-of-my-life suitcase. It's my strategic plan.

Lauren Ruffin:

Okay. You're taking that with you.

Kristina Newman-Scott:

I am taking that plan. That is an amazing plan because it wasn't designed by me in my office over two weeks. You know what I mean? It was designed by our staff, our funders, our community, our audience. They designed that plan, and I'm excited about delivering with my team, excited to deliver on that plan; so if that plan ... Because it's called The Manifesto, people. It's a manifesto strategic plan.

Lauren Ruffin:

A manifesto.

Kristina Newman-Scott:

We're bringing the positive back into that word, and so I'm going to take that plan, and I'm going to put it on top of my bag-

Lauren Ruffin:

You're taking that plan away from white shooters and making it positive again.

Kristina Newman-Scott:

Absolutely and-

Lauren Ruffin:

I think it's fine.

Kristina Newman-Scott:

I just put it on top of my Spanx, and I'm closing the suitcase. That's my stuff right there. That's my plan. What did you take? What did you guys pack?

Lauren Ruffin:

We didn't answer that question.

Tim Cynova:

We didn't.

Kristina Newman-Scott:

Oh great.

Tim Cynova:

I'm still at the-

Kristina Newman-Scott:

Now is the time.

Tim Cynova:

I still think we should stipulate that it's a hard-covered suitcase, not a soft one because then you can really get a lot of stuff in there you probably shouldn't take with you.

Kristina Newman-Scott:

You guys are going to have to answer that, if not today, with me. I'm going to YouTube every day and be like, "Answer the question."

Tim Cynova:

Oh we are out of time, Kristina. Wow. The time flies. We are out of time. Do you have any parting thoughts for us besides that you're going to be making sure Lauren and I address this question before we close our livestream?

Kristina Newman-Scott:

I think, as my two year old roles her scooter beside me, I think that artists have always reminded us of our humanity through their work, and when we reflect on our past, culture is what we reflect on, and I know that we're going to get through this moment. I know it. I feel it, and I'm so excited to have artists as a core part of our practice at BRIC, and they are definitely helping us see that light at the end of the tunnel, so I'm just going to say that I'm grateful for artists and creative risk-takers across our country and our world right now because they help to center me, and I'm grateful for the both of you.

Tim Cynova:

Well Kristina, we are grateful for you-

Lauren Ruffin:

Yeah, this was awesome.

Tim Cynova:

... And grateful that you took time to spend with us. Thanks so much for being on the show.

Kristina Newman-Scott:

Thank you for having me.

Tim Cynova:

Continue the Work. Shouldn't. Suck. Live adventure with us on our next episode when we're joined by Dave Archuletta, Chief Development Officer at New York Live Arts. Miss us in the meantime? You can download more Work. Shouldn't. Suck. episodes from your favorite podcasting platform of choice and rewatch Work. Shouldn't. Suck. Live episodes over on workshouldntsuck.co. If you've enjoyed the conversation or are just feeling generous today, please consider writing a review in iTunes so that others who might be interested in the topic can join the fun too. Give it a thumbs up or five stars, or phone a friend, whatever your podcasting platform of choice offers. If you didn't enjoy this chat, please tell someone about it who you don't like as much. Until next time, thanks for listening.

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Live with Gail Crider! (EP.24)

Last Updated

April 15, 2020

Work. Shouldn't. Suck. LIVE: The Morning(ish) Show with special guest Gail Crider, President & CEO, NAS. [Live show recorded: April 14, 2020.]

Guest: Gail Crider

Co-Hosts: Tim Cynova & Lauren Ruffin

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Guest

GAIL CRIDER is President & CEO of NAS. She facilitates strategy, program design and organizational alignment to values. She consults on strategy, leadership, planning and governance. Gail was Vice President and COO for over a decade and was instrumental in our transition from the National Arts Stabilization Fund to National Arts Strategies and providing the range of services offered today.

Over the course of her career, Gail has been an entrepreneur, worked with a variety of nonprofit organizations and spent a decade in philanthropy. Prior to NAS, she was as a program officer for a private foundation where she worked on inner-city redevelopment and community building in Washington, D.C. Gail has also worked for the Arizona Commission on the Arts, Arena Stage, Shakespeare Theatre, the National Endowment for the Arts and Key Bank. She co-chaired the Community Development Support Collaborative in Washington, D.C., and has served as a senior fellow for the Center for High Impact Philanthropy at the University of Pennsylvania, on the audit committee for the National Assembly of State Arts Agencies and on grant panels for the Corporation for National Service (AmeriCorps), the National Endowment for the Arts and the Department of Treasury, CDFI Fund. She holds a B.S. in theater from Lewis and Clark College and continues to learn formally and informally through her work at NAS, including continuing education at Stanford University, Harvard Business School and University of Michigan – Ross School of Business.

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Transcript

Tim Cynova:

Hi, I'm Tim Cynova, and welcome to Work. Shouldn't. Suck. LIVE: The Morning(ish) Show. On today's episode, Lauren Ruffin and I are joined by Gail Crider. Gail currently serves as the President and CEO of NAS, an organization dedicated to providing training and support for arts and cultural leaders. Over the years, NAS has partnered with leading schools and scholars around the world to deliver programs, like their Chief Executive Program, Creative Community Fellows and the Executive Program in Arts & Culture Strategy. This year, they launched the Leadership Coaches Training Program. They've created a handful of free online courses, including ones focused on leading innovation and inspiring and motivating teams. In addition to these in-person programs and online classes, their website is choke-full of tools, case studies, reading lists and reports.

Tim Cynova:

Outside of NAS, Gail has served as a Foundation Program Officer, working on redevelopment and community building in Washington, DC. She's worked for the Arizona Commission on the Arts, the NEA, and Key Bank. She co-chaired the Community Development Support Collaborative in Washington, and served as a senior fellow for the Center for High Impact Philanthropy at the University of Pennsylvania. And once, when Gail and I were attending an event, Justice Sonia Sotomayor snuck up behind us to say hello and thanked us for being there. Without further ado, Gail, welcome to the show.

Gail Crider:

Oh my gosh, it's a pleasure. It's a pleasure to be here, Tim and Lauren, really excited. And I remember that moment to this day, so clearly.

Lauren Ruffin:

I'm already distracted. We talked in fear about how easily distractable I am. Do you know Sonia Sotomayor?

Tim Cynova:

No.

Gail Crider:

We do not.

Tim Cynova:

We do not. But it was an event. I mean it was an event at the Supreme Court, so it wasn't totally out of the blue. And she was hosting it, and at one point in the evening, you're sitting around like event tables. And Gail and I are sitting next to each other and I feel this hand on my shoulder and I turned and it's Justice Sotomayor right there saying, "Thank you so much for being here. Really appreciate it." And we're like, "uh, yeah." So that was an amazing moment that Gail and I shared together.

Lauren Ruffin:

That is really, really cool. That legal nerd in me is like a little tingly. Okay. So Gail, I'm really excited to meet you. This is our first time talking. And you're in Arlington, but have the sort of bird's eye view or maybe not so high up, but a view of the field and everything that's happening nationally. So how's your community and what sort of themes are you hearing from people right now during the pandemic?

Gail Crider:

Wow, could answer that on different levels. I mean I live in a very dense neighborhood, and it's unusual, in the fact that it is highly dense, but we don't have any street lights, we don't have any alleyways. And so the whole social construct of the community is really interesting. And even in these times of social distancing, we get together out on our porch, on our stoops, to occasionally yell at each other from a reasonable distance. And that's really been a bright spot in life. To try and recreate that type of situation for our alumni, we've been hosting what we've been calling virtual hugs and inviting folks from previous years to come back together and talk about what's reality like these days, from both a emotional standpoint and from a leadership and kind of practical standpoint, what are they faced with? And we've gotten a whole range of responses there from leaders who are really networked. So if they have a very shared structure, probably somewhat similar to Fractured Atlas, they feel much more connected. And even though they're feeling extreme stress, they feel like it's shared to leaders that are in hierarchical structures, that are feeling even more isolated. And the stress levels are very high.

Gail Crider:

The other thing that we're noting, is that people are in this situation in very different circumstances. Some taking care of their elders, their children, their neighbors or friends. And so they may have much less time to devote to any kind of work situation, now that they're working from home. And so life is just so different. To others who have more time, it's running the gamut.

Lauren Ruffin:

Yeah. So Tim gave you a lovely bio, but how do you sort of usually introduce yourself and your work?

Gail Crider:

I, myself, I am the granddaughter of farmers and the daughter of a learning disability specialist. She was the first in the family to go to college. I'm curious and I'm persistent, and I'm the proud mother of a now 21-year-old who wants to change the world through politics.

Lauren Ruffin:

Oh.

Gail Crider:

That's how I introduced myself personally. Professionally, I am part of an amazing team that is everything from practical, creative, linear, nonlinear, they just represent such a wide variety of views and opinions. And I love that people bring their whole selves to any discussions we have, and so we have a lot of debate. We occasionally disagree, well we disagree and we occasionally agree. But it's a great space to be in as a leader, and in the shared leadership.

Tim Cynova:

What does it look like right now at NAS, work-wise? Because you were able to work remote before, so there was some flexibility in how you worked, although you have a physical office in Arlington. Have things changed a lot from taskable weeks work-wise? How do you communicate? What tools are you using? What new things are you finding to be useful? Not useful?

Gail Crider:

Well, I can say a resource for us has been your website. We actually, one of the things that we all did, what we flipped to completely virtual, is we posted all the resources for Fractured Atlas and Work. Shouldn't. Suck. So thank you for that.

Tim Cynova:

Thanks Gail.

Lauren Ruffin:

Yeah.

Gail Crider:

You're right, a lot of us travel. It's so strange not being on the road three out of four weeks in a month. But many of us travel, so we're used to working from home or remotely, but now all of us are working that way. And as I had mentioned before, we all have different circumstances. So we have from homeschooling to a newborn, in one of our households, to caring for family members. And so it's all different. So we've really had to adjust our collaborative routine. I think each of us have talked about having our own specific routine so that we know kind of when we're working and when we're not, which is different, it feels really different. And then for the collective, we talk about, we share those routines so we know when people are online and when they're not, when they're working and when they're not. And that's just shifted meetings for us.

Gail Crider:

We use zoom a lot. We're a Slack culture, well we don't Slack, but we are a Slack culture. Well maybe we do Slack sometimes. And so that's been helpful. We just started using Miro, the whiteboard app.

Lauren Ruffin:

Oh, yeah.

Gail Crider:

Yeah. So because we're flipping so many programs online or redesigning things, considering what things might look like in the next 12 to 18 months. So it's a great idea space for us because we think about design and we can share it with other partners and collaborators, and that's helpful.

Tim Cynova:

That's great. And this like dovetails perfectly with a question that just came in from one of our viewers. Which elements of your leadership development programs do you notice being most used and useful to your cohort in this moment? And how are you re-imagining your future programs as a result? Thank you for the question right off the bat here.

Gail Crider:

Thanks Andrew. It's interesting. So I mentioned the collaboration. We're part of a large collaboration that works in North Dakota, South Dakota and the native nations in that geography. And one of the collaborators is a Chief Executive Program alum. And we were talking the other day and she was mentioning how she still uses, there's certain tools that come up for her that are incredibly useful, and this particular one was around, is a problem adaptive or is it technical? It's HEIFETZ work. And so we're hearing that a lot from various folks through the virtual hugs about what's coming back to the forefront. Our pivot, in recent years, has really been about imagining and managing change. So those tools are pretty darn useful right now.

Gail Crider:

In terms of flipping programs or changing programs, two recognitions. One is that some things that were already on track where a group or a cohort has bonded, has met together physically, we kept the program. We just converted it to online because there was a real sense of wanting to get back together. Of course, we changed it. Nobody can stare at a screen for eight hours straight, but we've adapted the model. But what we found is that people wanted to really see each other and see what's going on in each other's lives and learn together, that that had an equalizing or a leveling experience for pupil. Creative Community Fellows is tougher. The individuals that typically apply to that program are going through so much stress and change right now. Many have lost their jobs, have lost their livelihood. And so we're looking at how better to support alumni, possibly doing more granting, which is part of that program and postponing the new Creative Community Fellows until we can really get our arms us and what's most useful for the community.

Lauren Ruffin:

In the same vein, earlier you mentioned strategic planning and sort of thinking 18 to 24 months out. How have you shifted sort of envisioning exercises that are always a part of strategic planning? I just feel like Tim talks a lot about the SCARF framework and certainty being a big one. And with there being so much uncertainty, do you find that, is the planning process blocked or do you feel like it's more generative right now?

Gail Crider:

We're living with such ambiguity and uncertainty, as you point out, Lauren. I think sometimes it depends on the day and even the hour and what people are faced with. And when you can make a shift, I think, when you first start living through, depending on the level of crisis or what you're faced with, it's pretty moment-to-moment. But eventually the horizon opens up and so what we've been trying to figure out is how both for us, for our team, how to clap eyes on the horizon, how to look up and keep looking up without being disoriented. And then how we can make space standing together with others that are thinking about re-imagining the future, how we can use our experience and bring our tools and relationships to bear on that possibility.

Tim Cynova:

Gail from like a how standpoint, what does that look like practically? What things have you found in your previous work that you've been doing with all the cohorts and all the different programs to be useful to people right now, to be able to do that?

Gail Crider:

For us internally, we're using a tool, we're using the 30 days tool, that rolls forward that talks about priorities, right? And we've restructured our meetings so that there's a level of tactical, just figuring out how we're moving forward. And then there's tactical-practical, and then there's a level of strategy. So we have like a kind of a dreaming meetings that we host together. And that's the way we're starting to structure conversations, too, with our alumni and with the field, is that there's a need for practical. And if we get through that and we also can make connections, I need this, I have this, we can connect the two. That's helpful. And then we start to talk about, well, so what does the horizon look like? We know what the media is looking like. We know maybe what the intermediate is looking like, and then how might we think about. We facilitate conversations that initially are just about thinking a little bit more longterm when people are ready and again, can't do it until you're ready.

Tim Cynova:

Talking about making connections. One of the, I think it was the inaugural Creative Community Fellows Program, I was a mentor. Tomorrow's guest, Kristina Newman-Scott, was a participant. I was there for something that I call luck circles. I don't know if that's actually the term for them.

Gail Crider:

It is.

Tim Cynova:

And it's for those who aren't familiar with the term.

Lauren Ruffin:

Yeah. I'm like, "What is a luck circle?" This sounds amazing.

Tim Cynova:

I was deeply skeptical and I'll let me tell you this story. So you put together like five or six people, and part of the idea is that we all have networks and some of us, our networks overlap pretty solidly. Others, the Venn diagram, if you will, it doesn't overlap very much. So we have different people in our networks and the luck circle is you just put something that you need or want or a question into the circle. And the circle sort of comes back with things. And at the time, I was looking to see the Zappos employee handbook, very Tim Cynova thing. But at the time, Zappos had a graphic novel for their employee handbook and I was fascinated by it. And I'm like, all right, so I'm just going to mention it. And I'm like, yeah, we'll see what happens. And someone's like, "Yeah, so my nephew just got a job there. Let me text him and see if it's possible to see."

Tim Cynova:

I'm like, "Wow, that's cool." And then the next person gets up and says, "Yeah, so I'm getting married in the fall", and I might be getting some of the details wrong here. But, "I'm getting married in the fall and my fiancé and I are looking for a beach location for our honeymoon. We're getting married in Europe. Does anyone have a place where we could go?" And I'm like, "Well this is pretty far fetched", like nothing's going to happen with this one. And someone was like, "Would you consider going to Egypt?" And they're like, "Yeah, sure." He's like, "Well, my cousin has a place. Let me just get in touch with them." And I'm like, "What the", and my mind just exploded at that.

Tim Cynova:

And then you go around this circle, you're like, there's no way that anything's going to happen here. And then you just start to see the group working and it's like, well, have you considered this and let's do that. And it was every time I've done it as part of that program, something comes up and I'm like, "No, there's no way that that's going to be solved in this or addressed here." And it's just a magical experience every time that just amazes me. And I'm so thankful for being there for that experience because I need some of those things in life, I think, to counter my deep skepticism sometimes.

Lauren Ruffin:

Skepticism.

Tim Cynova:

Yeah.

Lauren Ruffin:

Yeah. I do love that Tim is a total skeptic.

Gail Crider:

It's a good thing.

Lauren Ruffin:

Yeah.

Gail Crider:

To be questioning.

Lauren Ruffin:

Yeah. I mean even in an organization that's gone remote, Tim was like one of our last holdouts, as he led the thing. And we were talking to one of our guests and I was fairly certain that Tim would be like if it wasn't for a broken ankle and a pandemic, like Tim would say at the Fractured Atlas office.

Tim Cynova:

And an expired lease on our office. I just keep showing up with the next people coming.

Lauren Ruffin:

Until they kick you out, yeah.

Tim Cynova:

Yeah, yeah.

Lauren Ruffin:

Yeah.

Tim Cynova:

Well Gail, did I get the luck circle right? Or is there something I missed in the description that you'd like participants to take away?

Gail Crider:

It's based on the idea of the science of luck. Richard Wiseman, I believe it was, in the UK, who figured out that the luck is more of a science than we'd imagine. And really how people get lucky is to, which could really be taken, is to ask for what they need and to ask outside their networks, the normal networks. So we are actually, that's one of the things that's moving into the online programming now and trying to make connections, is we'll be doing some virtual luck circles.

Tim Cynova:

Nice.

Lauren Ruffin:

Yeah, I think that's brilliant. I do a fair amount of like sort of working people to build their fundraising shops. And so many people are so uncomfortable asking for one, really understanding everything they need or everything that could be helpful to advance whatever they're trying to do. But then just asking for it. And I think just creating the space for people to just explicitly say this is a space for you to ask for things can be really powerful. So that's really cool.

Gail Crider:

And you can imagine even now, more in this time, some people again have more time and some have less. And so there could be some space where people feel more productive to be able to be part of the luck circles.

Tim Cynova:

I think there's also something there too with the conversations that we've been having around, what does this become? How do we, as a community, adapt, change? What resources exist outside of the cultural sector that would be quite useful for the cultural sector, but because we're the cultural sector, you don't think it applies? And I think looking at these overlapping Venn diagrams and seeing where resources are, where help is and where people have solved the problem, if you will in some cases, how can this be a part of the conversation and be a part of creating the world that we want to live in, where more people can thrive, where everyone can thrive hopefully. I think that's a useful framework to think about.

Gail Crider:

We're working on a decision tree now. I don't know that it will work out the way we'd imagined, but the thought around it was to create, it's almost an empathy tool. In the pandemic, some people have more time, some people have less time, some people are overwhelmed with screen time, but need more social time. So there's a lot of kind of branches to the tree. And if we can potentially outline the tree, that people can populate it. So a leadership team or a community, it might be useful in building empathy about well, who's going through what at what time, and what might be great resources for them at that point.

Lauren Ruffin:

I do think this time has been, one of the cool things has been just seeing people be really explicit about what they need, in a way that like, I actually can't talk on Zoom anymore. Or whatever the thing is, it's forcing us to really be clear with our colleagues where we can sometimes stay in that polite zone and being able to say no. Like I'm having people say no to things that are usually kind of yes people. But that decision tree kind of reminds me of our personal handbook or our user manuals, Tim.

Tim Cynova:

Yeah, and we've been iterating on it on different teams in the organization. But those who are unfamiliar, the idea is there are several questions that people would answer about, when you do your best work, when you do your writing work, or what are your pet peeves or what do you really value in teamwork? And it's a way, I think increasingly and importantly, for those who have never worked together in 3D, to share, we each have this. And then you can share it with Lauren, and Lauren can read mine, I can read hers and you can understand, oh right, Lauren doesn't want anyone to talk to her before 10:00 AM her time, or 8:00 AM, whatever it might be. Or the best way to get something done is to use Slack versus Zoom or email.

Tim Cynova:

And I think it's not a perfect tool, but I think, be explicit, it fills in some of the gaps that you might learn about people over time and when you work in an office with them, just over here and you learn those things. And I think an explicit tool that people can have to sort of speed up that learning process is useful, especially as we hire people at Fractured Atlas, who we might not meet in person for a year. And how might we fill in those gaps in different ways. So yeah, the user manual exists in a lot of different formats.

Gail Crider:

And we've used, actually Tim, some of your questions over the years too when we hire and try and culturate people. It's the way because the culture doesn't necessarily, people adapt to a culture, but also they change the culture. And so it's really helped us be more, I think explicit about that. I think you're right, the architecture of a culture and the way people work when you have a physical space versus when you don't, big change.

Tim Cynova:

Well, and one of our previous guests was saying, even when you're interviewing people, if you're interviewing for a role and you think it's in person, you might be asking different questions than you would if it's an entirely virtual role. And as candidates, we would be weighing different things about, can I work that way? Can I not work that way? And I think what a lot of us are dealing with is like, all of a sudden, the chips have just been thrown up and there's a lot of moving pieces that people are finding out that it might not be what they thought. Plus, as you've mentioned earlier, just life is happening and uncertainty and other commitments. And how when life and work all of a sudden, sometimes seem one in the same, it makes that even more challenging.

Gail Crider:

Also what's important to know about NAS is we are very privileged. There are no furloughs, there are no layoffs. We can keep the staff team whole for a number of months and we're stepping out of the funding stream. We don't need it as much as others. And so it feels most appropriate, our team felt, to step back in this time.

Tim Cynova:

Gail, you were instrumental in the NAS transition from the National Arts Stabilization Fund to National Arts Strategies. You've been a part of a lot of different collaborations. Thinking to the future, where it's likely organizations are going to be exploring acquisitions, mergers, collaborations, certainly transformations and change, what do you think is important for leaders to keep in mind as they're going through this with their teams and organizations?

Gail Crider:

There are quite a few frameworks out there to think about the give and get, the way you actually collaborate. There's also frameworks around thinking about the difference in cultures of organizations, if it's established organizations that are collaborating. But one of the things I find that I have to keep relearning, in a way, as a leader in part of the collaboration, is the clarity of roles, which is incredibly important. The passion for the horizon. What the definition of that horizon and what you're all working towards, is the first thing. Clarity of roles is probably second. But the fact that there'll be times where it does get messy and times where your emotions will come into play, or you'll react in a way that you might react inside of your organization, but not with the collaborative. And so having that recognition about what's appropriate behaviors, at what point, and the generosity of spirit, I think it takes to be in a collaborative, has been really a wonderful experience for us at NAS and certainly for me personally and the collaborations I've been part of.

Lauren Ruffin:

One of the things I've been thinking about, well as a student of politics for the last, since Trump was elected really, but has been this struggle between federal regulations and how States are behaving. And we're seeing so many States behave like their own countries. And yesterday, I was reading that like all the States in the Western part of the U.S. have sort of banded together to say like, we're going to open up when we're ready to open up, and not when the federal government says. This is going to be like the next thing I'm going to be watching, like it's a tabloid show, just totally into it. Like, who's going to win.

Lauren Ruffin:

But from the cultural sector, it strikes me that there's going to be a point in time when leaders are going to have to figure out when their organizations get back to normal, like whatever normal is. There's going to be this like States say we can go out and hang out again. And then you're going to have staff members who might be immunocompromised or just not comfortable being out. Do you have any sort of thoughts for leaders? As we try to navigate, we're going to be getting all of these different sorts of directives. Can you talk a little bit about what you're thinking about or have started thinking about how NAS gets back to life as normal, whatever normal is going to be?

Gail Crider:

Well that's the question, right? We could hazard a guess and it's going to be messy, economically and structurally. And as we've touched on, and I've heard you speak with others on the show, I think it's really, there's a powerful opportunity inside of this. Now, how we structure the process to get there is an interesting question. But the powerful opportunity is to imagine a future and a roadmap. And when I say a roadmap, it's not a single one because a lot of people will have different paths to getting there. But towards a more equitable future, a more equitable structures for people and planet. And that the positive future we know is possible. And so I think it's that interesting coordination, if you will, like State and federal in some ways it's not happened. But my idea doesn't have to match your idea, but that we hold similar values and are aiming towards similar things and are in communication.

Gail Crider:

So if you think about network theory as potentially being useful in conversations, linking ideas together. Not as best practice necessarily, but more as information on the directions that a group of people or community are moving towards. We've heard from any number of our alumni that they feel like the change will happen geographically specific, locally first, and then have kind of a ripple effect of some sort. So this is something we're turning our energies to now, is to how to stand with others because we know, like Fractured Atlas and several others, you're thinking about what could be the future. How might we create these spaces for people to be creative and practical?

Tim Cynova:

Gail, as we pivot to our final question, I just wanted to highlight a comment from one of our viewers. Thanks Gail. Such wise and generous ideas you have shared with us today. Totally agree. As land the plane. What are your parting thoughts for us?

Gail Crider:

I so appreciate the space for this conversation and the two of you for organizing this. Thank you. I think in this moment in time, it's important that we be kind to ourselves, and I think that's often difficult in an interesting way. And so just to be kind, to continue to look for possibility and hope and to stay connected and to be brave.

Tim Cynova:

Great. Gail, always wonderful spending time with you.

Lauren Ruffin:

Yeah, this is great.

Tim Cynova:

Thank you so much for being on the show.

Gail Crider:

Thank you both. Great to be here.

Tim Cynova:

Continue the Work. Shouldn't. Suck. LIVE adventure with us on our next episode when we're joined by Kristina Newman-Scott, President of Brooklyn's BRIC. Miss us in the meantime, you can download more Work. Shouldn't. Suck. episodes from your favorite podcasting platform of choice. And re-watch Work. Shouldn't. Suck. LIVE episodes over on workshouldntsuck.co. If you've enjoyed the conversation or just feeling generous today, please consider writing a review on iTunes so that others who might be interested in the topic and join the fun too. Give it a thumbs up or five stars or phone a friend, whatever your podcasting platform of choice offers. If you didn't enjoy this chat, please tell someone about it who you don't like as much. Until next time, thanks for listening.

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Live with Syrus Marcus Ware! (EP.23)

Last Updated

April 15, 2020

Work. Shouldn't. Suck. LIVE: The Morning(ish) Show with special guest Syrus Marcus Ware, scholar, visual artist, activist, curator and educator. [Live show recorded: April 13, 2020.]

Guest: Syrus Marcus Ware

Co-Hosts: Tim Cynova & Lauren Ruffin

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Guest

SYRUS MARCUS WARE uses painting, installation and performance to explore social justice frameworks and black activist culture. His work has been shown widely, including in a solo show at Grunt Gallery, Vancouver (2068:Touch Change) and new work commissioned for the 2019 Toronto Biennial of Art and the Ryerson Image Centre (Antarctica and Ancestors, Do You Read Us? (Dispatches from the Future)) and in group shows at the Art Gallery of Ontario, the University of Lethbridge Art Gallery, Art Gallery of York University, the Art Gallery of Windsor and as part of the curated content at Nuit Blanche 2017 (The Stolen People; Wont Back Down). His performance works have been part of festivals across Canada, including at Cripping The Stage (Harbourfront Centre, 2016, 2019), Complex Social Change (University of Lethbridge Art Gallery, 2015) and Decolonizing and Decriminalizing Trans Genres (University of Winnipeg, 2015).

He is part of the PDA (Performance Disability Art) Collective and co-programmed Crip Your World: An Intergalactic Queer/POC Sick and Disabled Extravaganza as part of Mayworks 2014. Syrus' recent curatorial projects include That’s So Gay (Gladstone Hotel, 2016-2019), Re:Purpose (Robert McLaughlin Gallery, 2014) and The Church Street Mural Project (Church-Wellesley Village, 2013). Syrus is also co-curator of The Cycle, a two-year disability arts performance initiative of the National Arts Centre.

Syrus is a core-team member of Black Lives Matter-Toronto. Syrus is a co-curator of Blackness Yes!/Blockorama. Syrus has won several awards, including the TD Diversity Award in 2017. Syrus was voted “Best Queer Activist” by NOW Magazine (2005) and was awarded the Steinert and Ferreiro Award (2012). Syrus is a facilitator/designer at the Banff Centre. Syrus is a PhD candidate at York University in the Faculty of Environmental Studies.

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Transcript

Tim Cynova:

Hi, I'm Tim Cynova and welcome to Work. Shouldn't. Suck. Live, the morning-ish show. On today's episode, Lauren Ruffin and I are joined by Syrus Marcus Ware. Syrus wears a multitude of hats as a scholar, visual artist, activists, curator and educator. He uses painting, installation and performance to explore social justice frameworks and black activist culture. He is a part of the PDA, Performance Disability Art Collective and co-programmed Crip Your World: An Intergalactic Queer/POC Sick and Disabled Extravaganza. Syrus is also a co-curator of The Cycle, a two-year disability arts performance initiative of Canada's National Arts Center. He is a core team member of Black Lives Matter Toronto and a PhD candidate at York University, in the faculty of Environmental Studies. Syrus was an editor of the recently published, Until We Are Free: Reflections on Black Lives Matter in Canada. And he also illustrated, I Promise, a recently published picture book that shares a conversation between a parent and a child about how different types of families form. And I have the distinct pleasure of getting to teach with him in the Cultural Leadership Program at Canada's Banff Center for the Arts. Without further ado, Syrus, welcome to the show.

Syrus Marcus Ware:

Hello. Thanks for having me.

Lauren Ruffin:

So Syrus give us, how are you doing, maybe an update on what the tenor is right now in Toronto.

Syrus Marcus Ware:

It's a rainy day here as well. I'm doing well. I've been self isolating for a while just because of some health stuff. So it's not so safe for me to be going outside, so I've been inside. So the trip onto the balcony, the long journey onto the balcony to look at the sunlight is my big adventure for the day. Toronto is, it's a complex, beautiful city. It's a city that has an active disability community. So there's people who are actively saying, "Hey, we need to be thinking of those who are going to be most hardest hit by this crisis and stay inside for them." But we also have a lot of targeted policing in Toronto. And so there's been issues on the weekend about folks getting ticketed from being outside and some people aren't and some people are. And so those are some of the things that we're sort of dealing with in Toronto. But in general, we are well, we are healthy, we're starting to show signs of flattening the curve. Things are moving the way that they're supposed to.

Lauren Ruffin:

That's good news. So Tim gave you a lovely bio, but how do you usually introduce yourself? What about you and about your journey sort of pops to the forefront?

Syrus Marcus Ware:

I would normally start by saying that I'm an identical twin. I love being a twin, it's my favorite thing. And I'm so thankful that I get to be twins with this amazing person, Jessica Ware, she's a scientist and a geneticist. So she's been helping in the fight, trying to understand how things have shaped up the way that they have. So I'm a twin. As you mentioned, I'm an activist. I love being an activist. I've been organizing for about 25 years around things like racial justice, disability justice and prison justice. And I'm an academic, a scholar, activist. I've been working on a PhD and I'm almost finished, specifically looking at the experiences of black disabled people in contemporary art environments. And I'm a dad. I'm a father to an eight year old, almost nine year old, and we have done every craft that you can think of in the last few weeks. Everything like making dough, making cookies, coloring, drawing, making videos, like going to the garbage chute is our big adventure. That's what we've been doing.

Lauren Ruffin:

I understand.

Tim Cynova:

Syrus, I love this story of when you were at Banff, about bacon and getting up really early in the morning for the bacon with your daughter. It just like warms my heart every time I think about that story.

Syrus Marcus Ware:

Yeah, my daughter's pretty great. I would gush about her all the time and she's a little activist. She went to her first protest when she was eight weeks old. She went to an Occupy protest that we had in the city and she's pretty amazing.

Tim Cynova:

I mentioned in your intro, I have the pleasure of getting to teach alongside you in the same module at Banff Centre for the Arts. And we were there two months ago at the beginning of February, it feels like a lifetime ago since that time. Our module is focused on change management and little did many people probably know, they would have an opportunity to be experimenting with some of the things we were talking about then. And I was fascinated by your session for a number of reasons. First, your an amazing teacher and what you had to offer was really amazing. The idea or the concept or the framework around panarchy cycles was new to me. And I've been reflecting on this since that time about, as Lauren and I have conversations with people about what might a new normal look like, or what's going to happen as people start to interact again and where are we in this cycle and what's happening. Could you break down for people, or give people a quick overview of what our panarchy cycles, and your thoughts reflecting on that as we're in the midst of global pandemic?

Syrus Marcus Ware:

Absolutely. I mean panarchy is this conceptual framework that helps us to understand complex systems. So in particular, it helps us to understand the two seemingly contradictory characteristics of all complex systems, and that is stability and change. This idea of being in stasis and this idea of being in constant flux, held together as a complexity that helps us to understand what's happening in a system. So there's this idea of a cycle of life that happens in a system. And you can sort of imagine it as a forest life cycle. You know how trees kind of grow and flourish, and then build a canopy and all of the ecosystems and biodiversity that go along with a forest grow and change in shape along with those trees. Until you have huge canopy, you have a forest floor that's full of plants, and you have this complex system that is reliant on each other in order for its survival.

Syrus Marcus Ware:

But then you get to a point where there is too much, there is too much growth, there's more than the forest can sustain. And this is when you see things like rapid changes or collapse, something like a forest fire, or something else that dramatically changes the system. It creates sort of a clean forest floor and new opportunities for other things to grow, for new plants and for opportunistic growth in the rebel and the decay from the forest fire. So this panarchy cycle is sort of like a life cycle, and it helps us to understand stages of growth and stages of collapse, and how they go together to help shape and create complex systems. Originally, it was conceptualized in 1860, the panarchy cycle, by Paul de Puydt, but it grows out of indigenous knowledge. And if you think about it in terms of a plant life cycle or a forest like cycle, this is something that indigenous elders had been talking about for millennia, and it's a way of understanding the world.

Syrus Marcus Ware:

So if we understand that systems never stay the same, as Octavia Butler says, "All that you touch, you Change. All that you change, changes you." If systems never stayed the same and they're constantly in states of flux and change, how do we understand where we are in the cycle? How do we help influence change in a certain kind of way? And how do we make sure that we are those plants that are growing in the forest after debris, in order to build a new forest. So you can sort of understand it through the panarchy cycle. It's a really great way of understanding complex systems change.

Syrus Marcus Ware:

As an activist, I mean I've studied systems forever. So this idea that things don't stay the same forever is something that we know to be true. And as an activist, I'm very excited about the possibility right now because we are in a state of collapse. The system has grown and grown and grown and grown and grown and mushroomed, and now it can no longer sustain itself in part because of capitalism not working as the way that it used to, in part because of climate change, in part because of all of these things. And now we're seeing this COVID-19 crisis, so we're seeing the system right now in this state of collapse, and something new is about to grow. And we don't know what that new thing is, but I'm really excited to find out.

Lauren Ruffin:

If you were to, and I had a conversation a couple of weeks ago with another good friend of mine who is in Ottawa, and he was talking about, we're not going to go back to normal, and things aren't all going to open up all at once. Do you have a prediction for what happens at the end of the cycle or end? I guess, now that I'm saying at the end of the cycle, how do we know when we're at the end of a cycle?

Syrus Marcus Ware:

It's really hard to tell where exactly you are the cycle at any given moment.

Lauren Ruffin:

Yeah.

Syrus Marcus Ware:

Just because there's often multiple things happening at any given time, that's the complexity of it. But we are definitely at the rapid, the sort of reorganization phase, where things are changing and about to become something different. The hopeful part of me, the person who wants a better world, the person who wants us all to be free. I would hope that what would emerge after this, is a society that looks a bit different than it did before, that wasn't so reliant on capitalism as its main structure, because we know so many people are being left out. So many people don't have access to the resources that they need to survive and thrive under capitalism. So my hope would be that we have a different system, where there could still be trade and there could still be exchange, and all of those wonderful things that we've grown to love, but that it wasn't rooted in a monetary system that created a class structure where some people have and some people don't have.

Syrus Marcus Ware:

So my hope would be that when we reorganize our society, through this adaptive change moment that we're in, when we come back, we have things like what we're talking about now on the table in Canada, this idea of a universal basic income. In some places where they didn't have standardized healthcare, now they're seriously considering standardized healthcare. Like in the States, wouldn't it be wonderful if we emerged from this with standardized healthcare for all. And some of the sort of resources that are out there that would allow everybody to be able to be free and to survive and thrive. So I'm hopeful of that. At the very least, I think we're going to emerge from this as a society of people who have recognized that a lot of things that we do in public could be done from home. And I love science fiction, I love science fiction.

Lauren Ruffin:

Me too.

Syrus Marcus Ware:

And I love Star Trek.

Lauren Ruffin:

Yes.

Syrus Marcus Ware:

I confess to be a, not even in the closet Trekkie, fully out and marching at the front of the parade.

Lauren Ruffin:

Yes.

Syrus Marcus Ware:

But one of the things that I loved about that, was that there was this episode once where they had these people who had been frozen in the 1990s, and they get woken up in a pod and end up on the Enterprise. And they're like, "But what do you guys do for work?" And Captain Picard is like, "We all have all of the resources we need to survive, so we spend our time doing the things that we're interested in." And I was like, "There you go." That's it. That's what I would love to come out of this, is that we all had what we needed to survive and we were able to spend our time doing the things that were most interesting to us. Wouldn't that be a wonderful outcome that would come out of this?

Syrus Marcus Ware:

And that, in part, will happen if we have more time because we're not commuting and flying all over the world and commuting for work and all of those things. If we were able to continue some of this work from home practices, we'd be allowed to maybe use our time in a different way. And that makes me really excited.

Lauren Ruffin:

Have you watched Picard or Discovery?

Syrus Marcus Ware:

Of course. Oh yes, of course. Oh yes.

Lauren Ruffin:

So good.

Syrus Marcus Ware:

And my daughter is really into it too, and on Thursdays, it's just very exciting.

Lauren Ruffin:

Yeah.

Syrus Marcus Ware:

We have to do something in a pandemic, right? So why not binge watch Star Trek?

Lauren Ruffin:

Yeah. Exactly. I went all the way back and started watching Enterprise again.

Syrus Marcus Ware:

Great.

Lauren Ruffin:

So it's sort of on in the background while I'm working during the day.

Syrus Marcus Ware:

Yeah. There's so many possibilities. And so when you think about sort of speculative fiction and Octavia Butler and Star Trek and all of these things that sort of suggest a future, one of the common things that I think that we look to in those stories is this future where we all basically have more free time, and we're able to do the things that we want to survive.

Lauren Ruffin:

Yeah. I think about The Jetsons all the time. Watching that as a kid, I'm like, "When do we get to where they are?" Isn't that supposed to be happening now?

Syrus Marcus Ware:

Totally.

Tim Cynova:

Syrus, about a month ago you tweeted, this was as people were starting to self quarantine, quarantine, shelter in place, you tweeted something, a message saying, "Disabled people know how to survive in these times and throughout social distancing. I've got so many messages from folks doing check-ins and supporting each other behind the scenes in these hard times and it's F-in beautiful." One of the things we've talked about is how, what Lauren and I have talked about with guests, is how things that were previously too expensive or too difficult to do, online gatherings, things that had to be done in 3D in office, are now suddenly possible or people are realizing that they're now possible. However, people have been doing this work, organizations have been doing the work around this for years. And I'm wondering if you could talk about some of the organizations, some of the people that you work with that you know, who have been really doing the work of making places, making workplaces, making gatherings inclusive and accessible.

Syrus Marcus Ware:

Yeah, I mean we can turn to disability justice and disability activism right now and sort of figure out what are some of the best practices because disabled folks have been doing this forever. We've been calling and we've been Zooming in for a while because for a variety of reasons we can't always go in person to things. And it is, I mean it was really beautiful when the crisis first began, the ways that disabled people check up on each other is something that everybody can practice. Reach out to that person that you haven't spoken to in a while and just say, "Oh, by the way, Hey, how are you? Do you have all that you need to survive, to thrive?" I think that there's a lot of possibilities there. I mean there's some amazing and incredible work coming out of the States.

Syrus Marcus Ware:

Leah Lakshmi Piepzna-Samarasinha. If folks aren't familiar with their work, she is an author and a playwright and a performer and an activist, and one of the folks who helped to start Sins Invalid, which is the disability justice arts incubator based out of the Bay Area. And Leah has created a mutual aid, Google Drive, with all sorts of resources in there about mutual aid, collective care, supporting each other through a crisis, everything that you would need to know. I think she calls it a half-ass disability prepper guide, in there for how to prepare for any emergency, so there's just so many resources in there, that's amazing, that I would definitely suggest folks check out. Also, Stacey Melbourne has done some amazing work, again out of the Bay Area, around disability collectives, supporting and caring for each other. Anything that Sins Invalid is doing I think is incredible. There's so many resources out there, but I would start with Leah's mutual aid pack just because it's a really good place to kind of get your toes wet if you're just starting to get involved in how to build community care webs.

Syrus Marcus Ware:

There's a really great resource in there by Rebel Sidney Black about pod mapping and how you can map who's in your pod, who you're looking out for, who's looking out for you, who are your immediate circle, and then who's the tertiary circle just outside of that and outside of that. And how you would draw in those people if you needed them, if you did get COVID-19, if you were trying to not get COVID-19, and how you would sort of tap on those shoulders. So there's some great stuff out there. Again, I would just turn to some of the brilliant disability activists who can show us the way in these times.

Lauren Ruffin:

I've been following a lot of that work online. I feel like I learned so much from disability activists, and I'm 100% with you. Well one, has your sort of way of working changed besides crafting with your daughter, in every way possible, has your way of working change at all?

Syrus Marcus Ware:

Yeah, I mean, one of the things I didn't mention that I love to do is that I am a DJ, and I've been deejaying with, and helping to put on a black arts festival called Blackorama for 22 years, here in the city. It's part of Pride. It's the largest stage of Pride, it's the biggest stage of Pride. I love it and I just DJ throughout the year too, but my main focus is on Blackorama. And what we've seen now in this new world that we're in, is the emergence of the online Zoom dance party.

Lauren Ruffin:

Yeah.

Syrus Marcus Ware:

And I just deejayed for an Aries themed one on Saturday and, oh my goodness, I actually think I prefer deejaying from home. I actually prefer it. It's so nice to be in a party and people are there and you can see them dancing and you can see them moving. But I actually prefer, I did it from my bedroom. I just played the songs that I wanted to play. I could see people in their little squares having their little one-two, boogeying and it was wonderful. So I definitely been changing the way that I've been working. Deejaying from home is wonderful. I've had a lot of Zoom calls like this with collaborators all over, artists who I have met through, I travel a lot, I'm a very, very busy traveler. My art practice keeps me on the road a lot. And so I go to a lot of different places and meet people who I would love to collaborate with, but there's never time. And so right now there's time. And so I've been having all of these Zoom calls and connections to build collaboration plans going forward with folks in Australia and in Zurich, and in all over, the places that I've met with collaborators. So that also feels like a really exciting moment right now, is that there's just potential for collaboration across distance in new ways than we would've otherwise done before. And that feels really exciting.

Lauren Ruffin:

Yeah. I went to a dive bar last night and listened to one of my favorite artists on Zoom, Asha Santee. She's a DC based, pretty fantastic. I was like, this is exactly how an introvert should party.

Syrus Marcus Ware:

Yeah, it's incredibly better than being at the awkward part of, I mean to actually go out. I mean put on pants and go out and stand in a line, come on.

Lauren Ruffin:

Yeah. As a recent non-drinker, I really don't want to be around people. I don't have enough niceness in there to be out in a bar anymore.

Syrus Marcus Ware:

But at home, you could have your hot chocolate, you can just boogey down.

Lauren Ruffin:

It's like, grab my little non-alcoholic beer and kept it moving. It was great.

Syrus Marcus Ware:

It's great. It's really great.

Tim Cynova:

This is the conversation that I needed to start my week. This is really amazing, you two. One of the things we're hearing is about the overload though, of connecting online. Whereas it is amazing, I've been doing this with my own friends who I haven't seen for months, to connect on Zoom. But then it becomes a Zoom meeting, after Zoom cocktails, after Zoom dance party, and then a FaceTime. And then you're like, my whole day has been in front of this screen in this chair. Syrus, how do you approach this? How do you approach your self care and resilience in this time?

Syrus Marcus Ware:

Yeah, I think so much of it again, goes back to drawing on disability justice. So like what do we need to know in order to have a good day and to sort of thrive in our day? And so we know that as many times as we take breaks, we probably should be taking 10 times as many breaks as we take. All those times when you feel tired and feel like you need to take a nap because it is so draining staring at a screen all day, and under the normal capitalist system and our busy lives, we normally just say, "No, I'll nap later." No, nap now actually. Nap when you can nap. Take breaks when you can take breaks. Like these are strategies that we learned from just then. You mentioned in my bio when we did the cycle, it was a curated program trying to understand how to crip theater. And so in theater it's such a command performance. You have to go on stage, you have to perform, it's opening night.

Syrus Marcus Ware:

And we were trying to say, well what would happen if we did it from a disability frame? What if we took longer breaks? What if we took more breaks? What if we rehearsed by Zoom? What if we didn't always have to be there on opening night? And sort of imagining other ways. So I think we can kind of draw on those strategies and say, okay, how do we take more breaks? How do we build in more bubble bath time, more stare at the sky time, more watch paint dry time, because those things allow us to kind of rejuvenate and enliven ourselves. Similar to that panarchy cycle, we are a complex system and we go through periods of growth, and we go through periods of collapse. And we are also complex systems and we need rejuvenation time. We need that forest fire and then the breath after it, where we can kind of rejuvenate and gather what we need to gather in order to go into the next thing.

Syrus Marcus Ware:

And I think if you're doing Zoom all day, you need to build in a lot of love time and care time and nap time in order to be able to continue doing that. And then also to say that we are getting a crash course on what it is to be alone. And for a lot of disabled people who require attendant care in order to even get out of their beds, being alone is something that we've practiced, that we've had to practice. And I think that we have a lot that we can share of how to get through long stretches of time alone, because maybe you don't need to fill your day with Zoom catch-ups. Maybe there's one day a week where you're just alone and that that's okay. And to figure out ways to be comfortable being alone and just sort of having that quiet alone time. Again, we can draw from that. So I would say again, check out those collective care strategies and we can figure this out together.

Tim Cynova:

Yeah. That was one of the things that resonated with me with the panarchy cycles was, once you learn it, then you realize that it's not just one. You pointed this out, like each one of us have that. And then you start to layer them together and then our organization has that, and then our sector has that, and our world has that and our city has that. And you get to see just how complex this is and how you might be in one part, but the people on your team might be in another part. And then the tensions around those things and what you're dealing with. It was quite resonant to me and I'm really thankful to you and the rest of the Banff team who included that. I feel bad every time I go to Banff, I'm like, I think I learn more than I'm giving, but hopefully it's at least like net neutral here. That really was powerful framework.

Syrus Marcus Ware:

The cycles can be nested into themselves exponentially and in an infinite way. So you never know where someone is in that cycle. I mean sometimes we don't even know where we are in the cycle because we're in a state of flux. But yeah, absolutely.

Lauren Ruffin:

That's way messier than some of the other sort of organizational development. Like ways people think about it, like you've got, who was it, Tuckman, who's like, "Groups get together and then you're norming and your storming and forming and performing." And it seems that we're all moving at the same pace as individuals, and that all organizations go through those cycles. But I do like the sort of chaos in this and I love it, of course, it's panarchy. But it really works for me.

Syrus Marcus Ware:

Yeah, I don't know if there's a possibility to show images, but we can always post. There's a beautiful image of this forest rejuvenation that helps to kind of, I'm drawing it, but imagine an infinity symbol as sort of how panarchy works.

Lauren Ruffin:

Yeah. Yeah. But the organizational development stuff that we typically think about happens in a really, really orderly way. And the other thing about the forest cycle is, and living in the Southwest now, wildfire can happen anytime. Or you could be going way past your typical cycle and a wildfire hits. I'm also thinking about in your personal cycle, have you had that moment where you felt like things were going pretty well, besides this pandemic? I mean I feel like we all go through it, but once you get smacked by something, how do you stay resilient in sort of picking yourself back up and then stay within your mind to be able to know where you are in that cycle? Or how to get back on cycle?

Syrus Marcus Ware:

Yeah, totally. I mean it helps to remember that this is a natural thing. I mean part of why I am so drawn to the panarchy cycle as a concept is that it's something to hold onto when you're in the middle of the storm and you're being battered all over, is that you know that things are changing and that they're going to continue to change. I mean, this is what Octavia Butler was saying in Parable of the Sower, "All that you touch, you change. All that you change, changes you." Touch change, shape change, change is the only constant. To be able to hold onto the fact that this is part of a cycle and that you will come out of it, there are these two four loops and ground loops that sort of growth and then collapse and that you will get to the next part, is something to hold onto. I actually had the opportunity to have lunch with Octavia Butler and-

Lauren Ruffin:

Oh, we can end it all now.

Syrus Marcus Ware:

And spend the day with her. And I asked her how she was able to sort predict the future in the way that she did, and how she was able to kind of imagine these worlds. And she just basically said, "If you just continue on the trajectory that we're going on right now, it's very easy to imagine the collapse and the fall, and the rise and the collapse." I mean this is just something that happens again and again and again. And so she felt that she wasn't predicting the future. She was just saying, if we continue on this road with no changes, this is the direction we're going in. So she understood systems change and system thinking and wrote it into her books.

Lauren Ruffin:

Yeah, I stumbled upon her relatively late in life, like in my 30s. And I've always been like a sci-fi reader. I feel like I cracked Parable of the Sower. I'm afraid of violence, which is weird. In my real life, fine, but I can't read about it or watch it on television. So I felt like I picked it up and just kept putting it back down. I owned it and I finally read it in my early 30s, and it was life changing.

Syrus Marcus Ware:

Yeah. If folks haven't read it, I mean what a time to read Parable of the Sower. This is the time to read it. But it's really about a society that's right at the moment of collapse and that it's been in a steady decline, but now they're at the bottom of that collapse loop. And the main character, Lauren Olamina, without realizing it, she's actually planting the seeds for the forest that's about to grow.

Lauren Ruffin:

Yeah. Yeah.

Syrus Marcus Ware:

And it's amazing.

Lauren Ruffin:

Yeah. I would say her and then Broken Earth trilogy, by N.K. Jemisin. There's another one that's sort of, as I'm thinking about putting panarchy cycles into some of my favorite reads. Jemisin's talking about sort of how the earth heaves and breaks apart and separates, and I mean that whole story is about cycles of growth and change.

Tim Cynova:

Oh well, we have to land the planet at sometime people.

Lauren Ruffin:

Are you really drawing the image?

Tim Cynova:

I did, but I'll post a link to it. It'll be easy for people to explore because I found a lot of images and I was wary that I might cut off our live feed if I start poking around too much. So in the interest of keeping the conversation going, we'll just post a link to it. Syrus, what are some of your thoughts as we close our time together today?

Syrus Marcus Ware:

I just want to say we are going to survive this. We are going to make it through this stronger and better. All of the things that we were doing when we were sort of imagining these prefigurative politics, we were imagining these future worlds that were possible. Now is the time to try to put those plans into action. We have the possibility of building a world where we all get to be free and where we all get to thrive. And I can't wait to get involved in organizing to try to make that happen.

Syrus Marcus Ware:

When we come out of this, we're going to come out of this different and I hope that we come out of this better than ever. I am so thankful, Tim, to have had the chance to work alongside you at Banff, and to have learned from you. And it's so great to meet you and just to be able to be part of this conversation, and to know that I'm standing shoulder to shoulder from my apartment to your apartment trying to make the world a better place. We're going to come out of this stronger and better, and I can't wait.

Tim Cynova:

It's been an absolutely wonderful morning with you, Syrus. Thank you so much for being on the show.

Syrus Marcus Ware:

Thank you.

Tim Cynova:

Continue the Work. Shouldn't. Suck. Live adventure with us on our next episode, when we're joined by Gail Crider, President and CEO at National Arts Strategies. Miss us in the meantime, you can download more Work. Shouldn't. Suck. episodes from your favorite podcasting platform of choice and re-watch Work. Shouldn't. Suck. Live episodes over on workshouldntsuck.co. If you've enjoyed the conversation or just feeling generous today, please consider writing a review in iTunes so that others who might be interested in the topic can join the fun too. Give it a thumbs up or five stars or phone a friend, whatever your podcasting platform of choice offers. If you didn't enjoy this chat, please tell someone about it who you don't like as much. Until next time, thanks for listening.

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Live with Mara Walker! (EP.22)

Last Updated

April 11, 2020

Work. Shouldn't. Suck. LIVE: The Morning(ish) Show with special guest Mara Walker, Chief Operating Officer, Americans for the Arts. [Live show recorded: April 10, 2020.]

Guest: Mara Walker

Co-Hosts: Tim Cynova & Lauren Ruffin

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Guest

MARA WALKER is the chief operating officer for Americans for the Arts and is responsible for the overall performance of the organization, working to ensure its resources are used effectively to accomplish the organization’s complex strategic plan. Prior to that role, Mara developed targeted programming to meet the needs of a growing constituency of organizations and individuals committed to using the arts to impact communities and lives. She was instrumental in the merger of the National Assembly of Local Arts Agencies and American Council for the Arts that led to the formation of Americans for the Arts and has played an active role in other partnerships and mergers that have grown the organization’s reach. When she first came to the organization there were 5 staff members and a budget of $300,000. Today there are 65 people in multiple offices and a budget of over $19 million.

Mara, a native New Yorker, has worked in arts administration for more than 25 years at a variety of theater companies and arts organizations nationwide. She is currently Vice Chair of theatreWashington and serves on the International Advisory Board of the Hong Kong Arts Development Council. She holds a B.A. in theatre from George Washington University and an MFA in theatre management from the University of Maryland.

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Transcript

Tim Cynova:

Hi, I'm Tim Cynova, and welcome to Work. Shouldn't. Suck. LIVE: The Morning(ish) Show. On today's episode, Lauren Ruffin and I are joined by Mara Walker. Mara is currently serving as the Chief Operating Officer of Americans for the Arts. She was instrumental in the merger of the National Assembly of Local Arts Agencies and the American Council for the Arts that led to the formation of Americans for the Arts, and has played an active role in other partnerships and mergers that have grown the organization's reach. Mara has seen Americans for the Arts grow from five staff members with a budget of $300,000, to 65 people with a budget of over $19 million. She is currently Vice Chair of Theater Washington, and serves on the International Advisory Board of the Hong Kong Arts Development Council. And we are very excited for her to be joining us today. Without further ado, Mara, welcome to the show.

Mara Walker:

Good morning-ish. It's good to see you both.

Lauren Ruffin:

It is good to see everybody this morning. I'm feeling really grateful.

Mara Walker:

Yes. Yes.

Tim Cynova:

Me, too.

Lauren Ruffin:

Yeah. I was wondering, this is Champions Week. Jeopardy also does University Week. Is next week University Week, no matter who we have on?

Tim Cynova:

It could be. We'll have to work on it over the weekend.

Lauren Ruffin:

We'll have to figure it out over the weekend, yeah.

Tim Cynova:

Yeah.

Lauren Ruffin:

That's how we'll spend our weekend. So Mara, thank you so much for being here. How are you? How are you doing and how's your community doing?

Mara Walker:

Yeah, that's a tough question for me to answer. We're starting with a hard one. I am an emotionally conflicted human being to begin with. And right now, I think I am probably in a heightened sense of that. I am very happy that I and my family, my friends, my colleagues, are healthy and we're fortunate in that regard. But I know a lot of them have had experiences with family members or friends who have been sick or even in the worst case, passed away. So I am sad for them. I am both happy and sad.

Mara Walker:

I am appreciative of the people who are working so hard on our behalf. The medical workers, the people who are stocking our grocery stores, the people who are delivering our mail and our packages, and are doing so many things on our behalf. But I am sad, because I go for a walk every night and I still see people in groups. And I get all this conflicted information from our nation's leadership. I am both appreciative, but also a little bit confused about what's going on. I would say one word right now I think would be conflicted, as to how I'm doing.

Lauren Ruffin:

That makes sense. There haven't been too many folks in groups in my neighborhood. But I would be pretty, "What the ef are you guys doing?" You know?

Mara Walker:

What are you doing? Yes. I walk around them. I try to illustrate how I would hope people would be behaving, but it still exists. People are still blind to what's going on. It's amazing to me. You asked about community. I think you also asked about how our community was doing.

Lauren Ruffin:

Yeah.

Mara Walker:

Americans for the Arts is a national organization working to help advance all the arts in this country. I can explain that much further if you'd like. But what we're seeing through the great research of our research team, is that we're looking at over a $10 billion problem here. A direct hit of about $4.5 billion to our nation's arts organizations, plus an additional over $6 billion hit from our audience spending. So the economic impact on our communities with this devastation that's happening with the arts has been unbelievable.

Mara Walker:

And then we're seeing through also great research we've been doing, the hit to individual artists has just been unbelievable. I mean, two-thirds right now are out of work. We are seeing more than half of them just don't have a safety net or any kind of backup. I would say right now, our community is pretty devastated. And yet, there's such resiliency. What are nation's local arts agencies are doing to support the artists and arts organizations in their communities and engaging them in thinking about new ways to rebuild our communities. So again, there's that conflict of the pain that people are feeling right now with this incredible amount of work that's happening to engage artists and arts organizations, has really been incredible.

Tim Cynova:

What are the conversations like inside of Americans for the Arts about this? How to respond, what role to play at this time?

Mara Walker:

Well, we've been gathering up people. One of the primary things we do is really to convene people. We've been holding webinars and online conversations, and allowing people to share their strategies or just share their emotions. Our incredible legislative team has been providing information on how to access the Care Act resources or other kinds of relief programs that are going on through a resource center that we created. I guess, I think our team has been so innovative in trying to figure out what's going on, creating case-making research. Just really actively engaging with our members and our partners in how we can get information out and share information that will be valuable to them, and how to get through all of this.

Tim Cynova:

What does it look like practically, working at Americans for the Arts right now? I mean, we in the past have had conversations about my prior skepticism about working remote, virtual workplaces, and my own journey to get to a place where I'm like, "Actually, this does other things that being in person can't." But I think my default is maybe similar to yours, where I like going to the office and seeing people in 3D. What does it look like at Americans for the Arts? What has your journey been like now that we're all distributed from each other?

Mara Walker:

Well, yeah. I have a reputation on staff that regardless of what's happening in the universe, I would be on my hands and knees just trying to get into the office no matter what. Just under clouds of smoke, and I'd still be crawling to the office. I want to be there and I want to be in human contact with the people that we work with every single day.

Mara Walker:

What happened a few weeks before this crisis hit, our incredible operations team got together and made sure everybody, all 65 of us, had the equipment that they needed to be able to work from home. And so we've all been online and prepared to do this. We've been on Zoom calls, or I have been on Zoom calls, literally from 9:00 am to 6:00 pm at night. And that's tough. On the other hand, it's the best way to make sure that everybody's voices are getting heard in the variety of conversations we've been having about how to serve the field, how to do business continuity. And so we're constantly brainstorming and looking at new ways to do that.

Mara Walker:

It's not my favorite way of working. I was not a huge proponent of working from home. I like human to human contact, and the brainstorming and creativity that comes with that. But in the absence of that, we've been making it work. The team is phenomenal. They've been sharing food strategies and balancing life and work strategies and how to exercise, and how to engage and incorporate the arts into our lives every single day. We share poems. We share lots and lots of stories. We have happy hours. We have lots of ways to connect outside of the intensity of the work that's happening right now. I feel like that balance has helped me see everybody's face. Not just a subset of people that I'm working with on a regular basis about Covid work, but the operational continuity too. The creativity has been really wonderful to see.

Tim Cynova:

Have you had a chance to think yet about what might make it to the other side now that you're forced to be entirely virtual, when it goes back to maybe being in person in offices? What maybe surprised you? Like actually, that's a really great thing, we should try and hold onto that as we iterate into what's next.

Mara Walker:

I think a lot of that takes the form is, we're looking... We, just like every other organization out there, has been hit with a revenue challenge. Whether that's contributed dollars or earned income dollars, we've really been hit.

Mara Walker:

We're trying to do budget scenarios, rethink all of our programs, just creatively reinvent the organization as we're going through. And so what does that mean 6, 12, 18, 24 months? That's what I am really thinking about from now. What's the field going to need? What are our communities going to need? And as an organization, I think people are going to kind of like it. I like my commute down the hallway and being able to wear jeans every day, and my slippers to the office.

Lauren Ruffin:

Wow, you're wearing the hard pants.

Mara Walker:

Yeah.

Lauren Ruffin:

Come over to the soft pants side, come on.

Mara Walker:

I like having crazy curly hair Monday through Friday, and not having to worry about any of that. People have been very kind and generous about that. But I still will probably want to be back with everybody. But that might mean office sharing, and we might be able to save on space.

Mara Walker:

We may be able to have a lot more flexibility with people who do want to work from home or are working from home, in a variety of ways. So I don't know yet how it's all going to play out for a group as intense as ours and a group that's used to traveling and being out there, that's been curtailed and been in the office. I think it's going to take a long time for all of this to come back into a very different normal. And I want us to be open and creative as to what that will be, and not challenge myself to have a vision of it right now. But to learn from every day, as we're getting together and brainstorming the tense moments that come with some people feeling like they're not being heard or seen in a Zoom call with the ability to get people into a room together. I think it'll be different, but I'm not quite sure how yet.

Tim Cynova:

One of the ways you bring people together is through the annual convening in late June. I imagine there are conversations that are going on, challenging conversations, deep conversations about bringing people together and what that means at this time. Can you give us any insight into what might be going on behind the scenes with the annual convention?

Mara Walker:

Yeah. Well, I'll take it even broader than the annual convention. We have about 12 national gatherings that we do every year, from the National Arts Action Summit to the annual convention, to the National Arts Awards, arts and business partnership awards, our arts and business round table that we do up at Sundance. We are taking every single one of those programs and re-imagining what they could be in this scenario where you can't bring 1,000 people together or 500 people together.

Mara Walker:

So for example, the National Arts Action Summit, which was poised to happen at the end of March right as everything was happening, the creative team there really got together to reimagine what an online program could look like that has over 85 national partners that all come together. At the end of April, we'll be releasing very soon actually... that at the end of April, we'll be taking that whole program online and giving people an opportunity to engage in advocacy strategies in an online program.

Mara Walker:

We are thinking about the convention, we are thinking about in lieu of taking a number of leaders up to Sundance and up to the mountain which we would normally do in September, how can we have an online dialogue about what does this mean for mental health? What have we been learning about taking care of one another and having conversations like that? We do, as I said, the National Arts Awards Gala in New York in October. That's not going to be a very smart choice for us this year. So what are we looking at in terms of how you do fundraisers and how you do other kinds of activities?

Mara Walker:

We're re-imagining every single program that we do, whether it's a small group of 12 to a group of 1200 at the convention. And thinking about ways that people can be together. There's going to be a limitation I feel like, for how many virtual things people are going to want to do, but they're going to want to see each other. I see that now when we bring together groups like our United States Urban Arts Federation. They're just like, "It's so good to see everybody's faces." And, "It's so good to hear from our colleagues across the country." I think we'll be continuing in the virtual model for the rest of this year, and understanding and researching how people want to be together in that way considering that there are no limitations to how many of those opportunities exist for all of us right now.

Tim Cynova:

You were integral and involved in the merger that created Americans for the Arts. I'm curious, I can imagine as we go through this, organizations will think about mergers and acquisitions. Sadly, organizations will go out of business. What advice do you have for organizations where... Let's explore a merger. Let's explore an acquisition. From the things that you've learned that are really important, what would you have to offer?

Mara Walker:

I'll say a couple of things about this. First, we've always been a huge proponent, particularly of small organizations or medium-sized organizations, for them to share backend services, for them to think about how they could be looking at shared administration and finance kind of services. I'm hopeful that more organizations will consider partnership opportunities like that. That their art will continue, but they might continue in different kind of models. That's something that we have always been encouraging arts organizations to think about.

Mara Walker:

On a national scale, there are a lot of organizations that have resources so that they'll be able to continue, whether they have endowments or other kinds of things. But I do think there will be a number of organizations that say, "Hey, let's consider where there are mutual goals and mutual objectives in the work we do, and how can we accomplish those by being together?" Whether our staff has become unified or there are new kind of partnership models, or new programming that we could do together. Now, that only works successfully when people are very clear up front about what they want to accomplish, what their goals are. So that no one feels a loss through a merger or an acquisition, but they feel like they are able to continue in the incredible and impressive goals that they had.

Mara Walker:

When we created Americans for the Arts, it was a beautiful marriage between the National Assembly of Local Arts Agencies that had all of these on the ground workers who were building better communities, supporting the artists, supporting the arts organizations in their local communities with the American Council on the Arts. Which had a lot of patrons, it had higher level people who were thinking about the education system and that kind of thing. When we combined those, we had all levels of people who were thinking about the arts come together.

Mara Walker:

People say that Americans for the Arts is a very complex place. "Where's my point of entry? I don't understand the complexity and the depth of the organization." But that's because it represents private sector leadership and public sector leadership and local arts leadership, and state and national leaders of all kinds, who are really invested in making sure that we're building communities in which the arts can thrive.

Lauren Ruffin:

You mentioned backend services and operations. I'm curious, one of the things that we found with Fractured Atlas when we went a 100% remote, that there were these little things that we hadn't thought about that actually became really big things and were really time consuming for staff in terms of change management. Check processing, we had down. Mail was a little weird. Are you finding any nitty gritty obstacles that are kind of unexpected as you all quickly almost overnight, go to 100% remote?

Mara Walker:

That's really an interesting question. I think there is an expectation that we can, the organization, can make it all better very quickly. And what are you doing for me, how can you help me? We're trying as much as possible to engage our partners in that effort and engage lots of other people. That's why we built out this resource center, so that people know there are a lot of other people that they can turn to. It's not just about one person being able to do it all, but that it is a multi organization 10-tiered strategy on this.

Mara Walker:

I think the other thing is that you've got 65 people, and things are shifting. If a lot of work is going virtual, and we have this amazing meetings and events team that has been putting together all of these meetings... when things go virtual, they're shifting their roles. On our finance practices, moving business continuity into an online practice means people are shifting. They're thinking about standard operating practices and procedures in different ways. And our tech team is thinking about new phone systems and new applications so that it's easy to access your documents from home.

Mara Walker:

What I've been really proud about the Americans for the Arts staff is, in every challenge that's been presented, somebody has stepped up with an incredible solution. A creative solution that we may or may not have been thinking about when we were at the office, because we didn't need to. Or we didn't need to, yet. So aside from people saying, "Hey, hang on a second, I'd like to be included in that conversation." Finding a way to insert themselves into conversations that are going on where they want to make sure their voice is heard.

Mara Walker:

For the most part, challenges that have come up, we've been able to resolve. Whether it's through great uses of technology or somebody saying, "You know who'd be great for that conversation? Let's make sure so and so is invited into this." And that can be tricky sometimes. As program people are running to try and reinvent programs, you have to make sure your marketing communication is going along with that at the same time that your finance team is being able to make sure that members know how they can get the access to continued services that they are doing.

Tim Cynova:

Our colleague-

Lauren Ruffin:

You are speaking to Tim's heart.

Tim Cynova:

Yes.

Lauren Ruffin:

There was a lot of deep nods in there.

Tim Cynova:

Yeah. Our colleague, Nicola... When we were as an organization, working on what you do with mail when you don't have a physical location to receive mail? We had these conversations and it started to get really complicated. She took a step back and just sketched out all the way mail comes into and leaves our office. It illustrated the complexity that we really never had to think about before, because it just comes through our office and it leaves our office. But they are 13 different ways mail can come into and leave our office. All of a sudden, we're like, "Right." This is why it's been so challenging to figure out that thing because checks come in three ways, and bills come in this way and packages.

Tim Cynova:

And then we did the same thing with our financial schematics. How does money come into and leave the organization? Which allowed us to take that step back to say, "How do we move money when we don't have a stack of checks that were sitting next to a printer and feeding it?" It really allowed us to figure that out. But it took just to put this all on paper. Because you hold some of it, Lauren holds some of it, I hold the others... For all of us to have the complete sketch. Nicola is actually going to be sharing that soon, or someone on the ops team will be sharing our mail schematic and how we adapted that with using a caging service for checks and a virtual office. We use Earth Class mail as a virtual for our mail.

Tim Cynova:

Once you start digging, it seems easy. Just find a different bill service. Then you start digging into it, and you're like, "Crap, this is really complex." And that's just one piece of all of the things we went down the list.

Lauren Ruffin:

That just us trying to understand it. That's not us trying to understand it and then communicating it to people so we can do behavior change outside of the organization, because you actually can't send stuff to this address anymore.

Tim Cynova:

Yeah.

Lauren Ruffin:

Yeah. I mean, mail. Mail.

Mara Walker:

Yeah. We've had a number of brave staff who go in. One person goes in once a week to go through, because you still have mail coming into a location. So we've had to do that and rethink all of our finance systems, which we were in the process of actually thank goodness, rethinking anyway. We are able now to just speed up that process a bit. I mean, we're about to go into a budgeting season over the course of the summer, and we are reinventing how we're doing everything. From budgeting to scenario building, to all of that. And really as I said, fortunately, we were in the midst of a lot of that anyway... of rethinking about where checks are going and how they're processed in a totally different way. So our finance systems are going to look very, very different in a few months than that than they were six months ago.

Lauren Ruffin:

Can you share a little bit about those scenarios? Just in terms of the optimistic thought that maybe we'll be back to normal, if you want normal, some of us don't... by the fall. Then there's, are you thinking about all of the potential for us being in this space of you doing Zoom from 9:00 to 6:00 for the next 18 to 24 months? Are you planning for worst case scenarios or best case scenarios, or is there some nuance in how you are thinking about that?

Mara Walker:

I think the answer is yes, which is always the answer at Americans for the Arts. Yes. We're going to be doing budgeting. Or financial analysis, I guess, if you could. But I think I want to step back from just thinking about operations, to what the world is going to be like. How are we making sure that artists and arts organizations are core to the rebuild of our economy and our community, and how they're going to play a critical role in that next step of getting everything back up. And not back up in the way it was.

Mara Walker:

I think we have an opportunity to rethink government structures, rethink how we are living our lives on a regular basis. I want to be sure that the arts are included in that rebuild process. It's not just a question of rethinking the operations of the organization, it's also rethinking the programs and services that we're doing. And from that, then what kind of new systems are we going to need in place in order to meet that new change and demand? In the scenario building that we're doing, I'm conscious of both sides of that equation to make sure that it isn't just how we do what we're doing, but it's why we're doing it, and a new vision for that also. I don't know if that entirely answers your question.

Mara Walker:

Our budgeting scenario, our financial scenario, will be best case all the way to worst-case. I'm going to look at probably about four different scenarios. But you can't really do that in our case until you understand the kind of delivery mechanisms of servicing that we have to do. And until we can make sure... and our legislative team is doing that all the time, that the arts are included in the next stimulus package, that we understand the impact of artists right now and what they're going to need in order to rebuild. I can't create a budget that doesn't look at the kind of programs and services that we're going to need to be delivering over the next three years. I'm just looking three years out. There's a five-year window and probably beyond too. Yes, we're going to be working on a best case all the way to a worst case. But I have to have a better understanding right now of several different visions of how we are going to engage with partners and members as we go forward.

Tim Cynova:

Spending all day in back-to-back Zoom calls is exhausting, to say the least, or at best. What are you doing for your resilience and self-care right now? We're human beings. We're in positions of leadership with people looking to us for answers that we probably don't have answers to everything. How are you approaching your own resilience and self-care in all of this?

Mara Walker:

I've never been one to think very much about my own self-care. I have always been much more interested in the care of others. That is not something that I am particularly good at. I think that I am doing my best to stay connected to my family, and that is the support system that I have... is the way that we make each other laugh. I mean, laughter is a huge part of our family. I am walking more. So at the end of the day when my shoulders have been like this for eight hours, then I go for a walk and I remind myself to put them down. I'm very concerned that I'm not going to be able to fit through the door of my office when I get back, so I am trying to think about food. I am the worst cook on the planet, and my husband's been very kind about what's been on the table. But I've been trying to think about making sure there are more vegetables than pasta on those plates and things like that.

Mara Walker:

So I am desperately trying. And I'm desperately surrounding myself by people who really do know how to make me laugh, and that is the best medicine for me. On staff, we are very conscious of that too. We created something called the Learning Lab, the Americans for the Arts Learning Lab. What that is, is staff-driven training program for us where we're thinking about anywhere from understanding history of oppression, microaggressions, to self-care and self-esteem building and those kinds of issues. We do training all year round on how to help one another, which is really incredibly helpful for me. I've learned so much from folks. But I've also learned that it's a really important thing to remember how to breathe, because I am just rushing from thing to thing to thing. I don't necessarily stop and think, "Okay, just take a breath. Just calm down for a second and get into the next thing well prepared."

Tim Cynova:

I've been meditating for a while, and it never fails. As you're going into it, you feel yourself sitting. One of the prompts is, and you'll notice yourself breathing. And I'm like, "I am breathing." But it surprises me every time. It shouldn't be. But yes, I am breathing. That re-centers me in a helpful way. But yeah, you just go from one thing to the next. It feels like being present in the moment in life, and tapping into those things are really helpful.

Mara Walker:

Being present, I think is possibly the greatest gift I can give to anybody, and it's probably the hardest thing I do in this job. Because when you run from something to something, and someone's calling me and someone's texting me and someone's chatting me, and all of those things are happening at the same time and I really want to be there for the person on the other side, and to lend them the greatest support or brainstorming or ideas... that's a really hard thing for me. I do try and work on that.

Lauren Ruffin:

9:00 to 6:00 on Zoom is... I am skeptical about people, at best. Woo, that is a lot of talking to folks. I'll be thinking about you for a while.

Mara Walker:

I appreciate it.

Lauren Ruffin:

If you ever just want to sit in silence on Zoom with somebody, feel free to put a time on my calendar.

Mara Walker:

I'm not sure I'm capable of it, but I appreciate the offer.

Lauren Ruffin:

I'm just going to say, everything else you're doing is best practice, but 9:00 to 6:00 on Zoom is not. But no, this has been really lovely, Mara. As we are sort of closing out the episode, you've talked about so much meat. I feel like this is the episode where we actually got to work the most, which is awesome given the title of this live stream. What's still top of mind for you that we haven't spoken about? Is there anything you want to leave our audience with?

Mara Walker:

I'll say one thing. I have loved the way that the arts have been essential to everybody's survival of this crisis. You see people doing art, doing poetry doing... I just saw a video of Brian Stokes Mitchell, who's on our board and on our Artists Committee, singing Man of La Mancha out his window. The way that people are designing masks and getting things to the hospital. I mean, the art has been central to I think, the day-to-day survival for people who have been in their homes.

Mara Walker:

I want to make sure that the arts stay core to building better lives in communities and workplaces and our education system, as we move forward. And that is what Americans for the Arts will be doing, and that is hard work. It is advocacy work. It's data. It's research work. It's convening work. It's partnership work. It's all of those things wrapped in so that we get pro arts policy. It's core to the rebuild of America's communities and economy. So I'm thinking about that, and I'm thinking about our people, our board, our staff. And all of the people that we work with are incredible partners on how to make sure we come to the other side of this with a reminder to people that the arts are essential to how we move forward, and to our 65 people as well.

Tim Cynova:

Mara, thank you so much for being on this show. Thanks. We've got some great chat comments here. It's been really wonderful to spend the morning with you. Thanks for making time.

Mara Walker:

Thanks for having me. It's great to see you both.

Tim Cynova:

Continue the Work Shouldn't Suck Live adventure with us on our next episodes, when we're joined by Syrus Marcus Ware, Gail Crider, Kristina Newman-Scott, and Dave Archuletta. Miss us in the meantime? You can download more Work Shouldn't Suck episodes from your favorite podcasting platform of choice. And re-watch Work Shouldn't Suck Live episodes over on workshouldntsuck.co.

Tim Cynova:

If you've enjoyed the conversation or are just feeling generous today, please consider writing a review on iTunes so that others who might be interested in the topic can join the fun too. Give it a thumbs up or five stars or phone a friend, whatever your podcasting platform of choice offers. If you didn't enjoy this chat, please tell someone about it who you don't like as much. Until next time, thanks for listening.

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Live with Christy Bolingbroke! (EP.21)

Last Updated

April 10, 2020

Work. Shouldn't. Suck. LIVE: The Morning(ish) Show with special guest Christy Bolingbroke, Executive & Artistic Director, National Center for Choreography at The University of Akron. [Live show recorded: April 9, 2020.]

Guest: Christy Bolingbroke

Co-Hosts: Tim Cynova & Lauren Ruffin

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Guest

CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE Following a national search, Christy Bolingbroke was named the first Executive & Artistic Director of the National Center for Choreography located at The University of Akron. In this role, she provides both artistic and administrative leadership for NCCAkron, building upon her extensive experience in curatorial programs and external relations.

Christy came to NCCAkron from the San Francisco-based ODC (founded at Oberlin College in Ohio in 1971 as the Oberlin Dance Collective), where she served as the Deputy Director for Advancement. In that position she oversaw curation and performance programming, managed marketing and development campus-wide, directed a unique three-year artist in residence program for dance artists, and mentored emerging arts administrators.

Christy was formerly the Director of Marketing for the Mark Morris Dance Group in Brooklyn where she increased touring ticket sales worldwide and activated Access/MMDG events in major hub cities nationally. The Access/MMDG program uses custom-tailored arts and humanities-based activities to deepen and enhance the audience experience.

Bolingbroke has a B.A. in Dance from the University of California, Los Angeles, is a graduate of the DeVos Institute for Arts Management Fellowships Program (previously at the John F. Kennedy Center for the Performing Arts in Washington, DC), Arts & Business Council of New York’s Arts Leadership Institute, and holds a Master's Degree from the Institute for Curatorial Practice in Performance at Wesleyan University.

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Transcript

Tim Cynova:

Hi, I'm Tim Cynova and welcome to Work. Shouldn't. Suck. Live, the morning-ish show. On today's episode, Lauren Ruffin and I are joined by Christy Bolingbroke. Christy is currently serving as the first executive and artistic director of the National Center for Choreography at the University of Akron. Before landing in Akron, she held roles as the deputy director for advancement at San Francisco Base ODC. She was the director of marketing for the Mark Morris Dance Group in Brooklyn. She holds multiple degrees including a master's degree from the Institute for Curatorial Practice and Performance at Wesleyan University.

Tim Cynova:

She has her finger on the pulse of dance like few people I know and fun fact... Christy appeared on the very first livestream show many years ago, vintage livestream, if you will, when I co-hosted a show with Sydney Skybetter called #SYNOVA. Without further ado, Christy, welcome to the show.

Christy Bolingbroke:

Thanks, Tim. Hi, Lauren. Thanks so much y'all for having me.

Lauren Ruffin:

Hey, it's good to meet you. I'm going to stick to our script since I don't have anything to go off-topic with you because this is our first time meeting.

Christy Bolingbroke:

We'll find something. Don't worry.

Lauren Ruffin:

I'm pretty sure. I'll wait to talk about basketball since you're from Akron. So our first question for our guests as always, "How are you and how's your community doing right now?"

Christy Bolingbroke:

Doing okay. As best as we possibly can. I think what I'm really appreciating in my community here in Akron always has been strong in supporting hyper-local, but really supporting the local businesses and how they're stepping up above and beyond to find creative ways of getting things out to us, whether that's moving to online subscriptions or only being open for select holidays and then selling out, which is something we think about all the time in the performing arts, but I don't know that the restaurant industry had thought of previously. So I'm really appreciating that about my immediate community.

Tim Cynova:

Can you talk to us a little about NCC and your work and how do you usually describe yourself?

Christy Bolingbroke:

I identify as a recovering marketer, turned curator and executive leader. So I often think about audience experience and the bridge between communities and artists, and NCC Akron was something that didn't exist when I entered the workforce. Even the first National Center for Choreography, MANCC, down at Florida State University in Tallahassee didn't exist when I entered the workforce. So what excited me about coming to this position was the opportunity to build something from scratch but also to have a platform that I can support as many artists as possible.

Tim Cynova:

Well, Christy, one of the really interesting things that we've talked about over the years was in being the first leader of this organization, you got to set it up how you wanted, or largely how you wanted. What was important to you as you were crafting what the organization looks like, its values, its culture? How did you go about that? And then what might be changing or how might you be rethinking that in light of what's going on in the world?

Christy Bolingbroke:

I moved to Akron and started in my position in the fall of 2016 and a lot of the heavy lifting was done before I got here. We have a three-way founding partnership including the University of Akron, DANCECleveland, the premier dance presenter across Northeast Ohio and much of the Rust Belt. It's just 45 minutes from here. And the John S. And James L. Knight Foundation. And it was through their feasibility studies, Could a national center for choreography exist in Ohio? What would that look like? And then a very unique seeding of a $5 million endowment that they set up through the Miami Foundation and incorporated NCC Akron as a discreet nonprofit that operates in donated space on the university's campus.

Christy Bolingbroke:

That complexity alone, that's what I inherited and I am so grateful and recognize [inaudible 00:03:56] that opportunity. I know. There'll be follow up questions.

Lauren Ruffin:

I'm trying to figure out what they might be. I don't even know where to start.

Christy Bolingbroke:

And then, when I'd arrived, my board, which included appointees from each of the founding partners, said, "You're never going to have this opportunity again. So you have almost a year before we have front-loaded a residency or program to come in, so this is your opportunity to figure out what do you want to do."

Christy Bolingbroke:

We started with bi-monthly meetings and discussions about our curatorial values. What does it mean to be a national center that is not in the physical center of the country or in the perceived center of a field? And I also think a lot about what does it mean to be in residence that is not in a transactional way. In the same like, "I'm giving you a gig, I'm paying you to do something," but rather that spirit of reciprocity that comes from really living somewhere or being somewhere. How are you contributing to a community? And vice versa, that community is supporting you.

Christy Bolingbroke:

And then also just having come out of the dance field, and Tim, you and I were on lots of early conversations with emerging leaders for New York Arts, and [inaudible 00:05:13] shout about the 501c3 model. Is it dead? Is it not? It's dying a slow death, I think, if anything. People are still asking that question now. Was really mindful and still continue that seems to be the third wire to build something, but how do you not become too normalized or institutionalized that you no longer can pivot? You no longer can be responsive to the people you're trying to serve.

Lauren Ruffin:

In terms of your work right now, I still can't figure out one question that's succinct enough to even respond to that because that's so juicy. How has your work changed in the last month or so and has your view on the mission changed? And you did mention when we were in the green room that you were in the process of a strategic plan. Are you [inaudible 00:06:00] a strategic plan right now? So feel free to throw anything about that in, as well.

Christy Bolingbroke:

I was the sole full-time employee up until this past fall and we would strategically bring in consultants or project managers to scale up when we had larger projects coming in. And, in some ways, this moment doesn't feel alien to me for that reason because the first year we didn't have an office and I worked from home. I often travel two or three times a month to see artists all over the country, so I used to say, "Wherever I am, that is the center."

Christy Bolingbroke:

And so we were just starting to expand our staff, and we had built out a six month staffing experiment, including a graduate assistant and three part-time individuals that we were already asking, "So how much time do we need additional staff in labor? How much is that when we have artists on the ground? How much of that is in between and what are those roles? So in trying not to be too institutionalized, I didn't want to just hire a development director. It's really about, especially starting from this kernel, it's about how do you build out a team where it's not their first job, but they also aren't so seasoned that they have rightfully accrued a moment where they can say, "You know what? I want to work at this level. I want to make this much money and I'll take a couple of meetings. I'll write a couple of grants."

Christy Bolingbroke:

So how do you cultivate a middle management team and [inaudible 00:07:35] flat landscape from a structural standpoint so that it's not as hierarchical. I'm not the one running all meetings. There's a lot of cross and peer learning, too.

Christy Bolingbroke:

So we were in the middle of that experiment. And based on when we came in, we already had some individuals who work remotely. Now we're all working remotely but we're also having to deal with daily things. There were huge thunderstorms and crazy weather in Ohio [inaudible 00:07:59]. It was actually snowing 30 minutes ago out of nowhere, and one of our team members is out of electricity. So, okay. Great. We're like, "We're going to take this a day at a time. Keep us posted when you go out and recharge your phone in your car."

Lauren Ruffin:

Crank up the generator.

Christy Bolingbroke:

Yeah. Exactly. And so I would say if anyone's been consistent is that we have created a porous structure. So I try not to set up an environment where it's going to be an all hands on deck and we all can't, whatever latest modern dance emergency comes through, because that certainly wouldn't be sustainable right now in this moment. But everyone has ideas of what can they work on longterm that maybe now they have more time to fit into. And what are the things that they can actually anchor, whether that's our weekly team meeting. We have a weekly-one-on one with each team member and myself that we can continue to sort of feed the machine without letting it run away with us or completely be stuck now that it's held back.

Christy Bolingbroke:

And then from a programmatic standpoint, we were in the middle of a large collaboration, the first phase with the university where we identify NCC Akron as a discreet 501c3, can work more nimbly and quickly, especially, then institutions when they're trying to hire up staff.

Christy Bolingbroke:

We've been partnering with the School of Dance Theater and Arts Administration and had launched a capsule series called 21st Century Dance Practices, where we had guest artists that would come in for a week. They would teach, basically a takeover of the three intermediate-advanced modern classes, and they didn't have to fit in modern technique. It was also about disrupting the binary idea of aesthetic is ballet or modern, but to illuminate the spectrum.

Christy Bolingbroke:

And we were halfway through that and then face-to-face classes were suspended. And I really appreciate as my colleague Valerie Ifill, who is the faculty of record, she was like, "Okay, we're trying to still move forward. Everyone's been asked to move their instruction online and that's going to look different for each of us." And I said, "Well, what would be your minimum? Can we still hire these artists? Can we still create jobs and pay them?"

Christy Bolingbroke:

Most of them work outside of an academic institution, so we identified every Friday for the five remaining weeks in this semester, they have a guest virtual class. And I can't think of anything more 21st century than adapting your dance class to be on the internet. And what actually worked for us was the opportunity we were able to add two more spots than we had originally had lined up because we had changed the structure of what our partnership would be. Originally we would just have had a couple remaining, but now we're able to work with all five and still provide that experience for the students and provide an opportunity for artists, as well.

Tim Cynova:

Christy, you're one of the most well-connected people that I know in the dance field. Working at the Parsons Dance Company. You were working at Mark Morris when we first met, and since then I don't work directly for a dance company. And you know everyone and you see everything, and usually I just nod along when you mention names and what you're seeing. I'm like, "That sounds great."

Tim Cynova:

What are you hearing from the field? What are you hearing from friends and colleagues in the dance field right now? You've talked about some experiments and shifting things online. When you're talking to this meeting, where are they? What's on their mind?

Christy Bolingbroke:

I'll try not to generalize but point out a couple of things and then maybe ask some rhetorical questions where I hope the field is thinking. I think everyone came at this and needed to be given the space to process or mourn where they are in that moment.

Christy Bolingbroke:

When we first went into a suspension of face-to-face instruction, we actually had Stephen Petronio Dance Company coming to Akron. And we had a conversation, "Do you still want to come? Instruction has been suspended, but we have seven studios. If you want to work in them, you can spread the dancers out even. And there were less than 10 of them, so at that moment in time we did make the decision and they came. They stayed as long as they could until it felt like they needed to go back home to make sure while they still could really, because that's the uncertainty is knowing what is going on in one part of the country might not be the same experience somewhere else and things were starting to escalate in New York. I'm really proud that we were able to still fully pay them regardless if they stayed for the whole week or not because that's the position that we're in.

Christy Bolingbroke:

What I have heard from other artists and presenters is that this moment, not only mourning the performance that would have been, but the moment also, it tends to highlight the cracks that we already knew were in our system [inaudible 00:12:59] pushed on.

Christy Bolingbroke:

And one of those in particular has been, a presenter or venue may pay a certain fee and that fee includes maybe it's hotel and travel and then something to pay the dancers for that. And the presenter in the moment, if they're canceling two weeks out or a month out, they were like, "Okay, so sorry. We're going to have to cancel. We'll try and reschedule." But the artist then would take that moment, "Well, I've already incurred expenses and I wouldn't have rehearsed for that gig if we didn't have your gig on the docket."

Christy Bolingbroke:

And I think it truly was illuminating our presenters, that's how tightly budgeted our artist presenter relationship is. And there's no one answer out of that because I'm empathetic for both parties because they come from different financial realities, and some may not be able to be as generous immediately as others because they're also tightly budgeted. But I think that little aha and that realization, I hope that we carry that forward and come up with better solutions. So recognizing that the normal was, in fact, broken and that's not maybe everything we're trying to return to.

Christy Bolingbroke:

The other question that came up with some independent artists who were maybe going to have big breaks. They had received major grants this year and now they're still hopeful and want to postpone, but from a cashflow position, because they just incorporated in the last year after being fiscally sponsored for a decade, they're wondering, what's best practice for my artists.

Christy Bolingbroke:

And I was like, "Well, that's the reality. There is no best practice, so you have a choice and what do you want to do?" So I'm hearing artists that were talking about, like, "I want to take care of my cast and collaborators." So they're actually thinking about advancing them for work that they might not do until July or August. And that's a unique position to be in if you can think about from a cashflow for them.

Christy Bolingbroke:

I also find it interesting I'm hearing also that for some dance companies they maybe kept the dancers at arms-length from the administrative day to day, and now, and I saw this a little bit in the 2008 great recession, too. Now it's like, "Oh, you really want to understand, we need to raise $30,000 in order to pay you through this time." And the dancers have been more active. Some colleagues have said it feels like the dancers are working for marketing, or the dancers are working for the development department because the dancers are really doing a lot of the labor to put out those crowd-funding opportunities and engaging their friends and family, and to some great success. I don't know if that's sustainable moving forward, but those are some of the things that I'm seeing right now in the moment.

Christy Bolingbroke:

And then from a performance standpoint, the thing that I worry about is, what was also in our field, is everybody had a different decision-making timeline. I often would tell artists it might be 15 to 18 months from when you and I have a discussion to when you may actually hit the ground in Akron. There are some entities that they're doing 40 or 50 weeks a year of programming, and so for them it's much faster. It's much tighter. And if we can't be decisive to move forward so they can't... If they're only canceling shows month by month, it's like they're reliving the trauma of cancellation over and over again. And I worry that that'll hold some of us back in the field from being able to think about rebounding or re-imagining the next step.

Tim Cynova:

I think it's worth reimagining. Last week, we had Laura Zabel, executive director of Springboard for the Arts on, another great guest, and we talked about very quickly after South by Southwest was canceled and conferences started to cancel, that Springboard put out ethical cancellation principles for people to consider as they're wrestling with these very challenging times and challenging decisions, or difficult decisions, I should say.

Christy Bolingbroke:

Whether it's the ethical recommendations or some of the small micro-victories as CARES Act and different things get passed both federally and at the state level, the inclusion finally of self-employed and contractors. I hope that's something else that we don't let go because already the gig economy was here. It was the majority of our workforce, not just in the arts, but growing more broadly across sectors, and so those are some of the shifts that I think that we should hold on to as far as, okay, at least we got that into the conversation because that would not have been part of the discussion 10 years ago.

Lauren Ruffin:

I feel like we succumb to the concept of gig economy work in a way that we never really had a national conversation about that because that transition from that work being someone's side gig, that's how it was always designed. And then all of a sudden we had people fall into that as full-time work without any of the safety-net apparatus. It was never intended to be that. And yet, I feel like in the arts sector, everyone I talked to you as an artist is doing side gig work, whether it's the majority of their income comes from working in a restaurant or driving Uber or whatever. I just feel like this is a time for us to stop and pause and really think about, is this really what we want our workforce to look like? Although organizations that did a lot of work to get the freelancers and gig economy workers in that bill, really big deal, and now we're starting to see states augment that. So New Mexico is doing... I think the first 2000 people who apply get 750 bucks if they're self-employed. So we're starting to see states augment that money, as well.

Lauren Ruffin:

I keep thinking about Aretha Franklin in terms of cashflow because she didn't sing unless she got paid. She got her cash up front and I keep wondering when artists are going to start moving back into that paradigm that so many singers for years and years, it's just a best practice. Don't invest any rehearsal time until you've got some sort of capital to cover that time and your efforts. So I think your piece around contracting, it'd be interesting to think about what does new contracting agreement for performing artists, what would that look like? And I know that makes it hard for presenters, but I feel like... My knowledge is limited, but I feel like presenters are often in a better position financially than the creatives that are working with them.

Christy Bolingbroke:

They're just in a different flow. Part of my work that started when I got here and I've tried to continue this, is to do a listing tour around the country, which is a focus group to test everything I think I know about what it takes to make work, and is that the same in Charlotte, North Carolina, as it is in New York City or Chicago. And what struck me as I've been in some rooms, I usually partner with a presenting institution and I invite up to six to eight artists and we go around the room. Okay, what's your average budget size? And if you're project-based, include that, and if you're incorporated include your org budget. And I've been in the room where the range was $34,000 to $2 million. And then if I try to insert what is the average budget size for a lot of our presenting institutions, it might only be $700,000.

Christy Bolingbroke:

So I thought then, would a $2 million arts organization realize that they may have more power when they go to a presenter? Would they ask that question? So it's not just the transactional, I'm trying to get these expenses covered. I think the shorthand and is that the presenting institutions, they have a different kind of stability, but what they give us sometimes is flexibility. And that's what I'm excited to nurture in artists is to really own their flexibility to do what we've been doing, NCC Akron's experiment quickly and fail fast. We don't have to do again if it's not really satisfactory and beneficial on the other side of it. And a lot of times our larger institutions can't take those kinds of risks.

Lauren Ruffin:

I love that you brought up power in that conversation. Are you having explicit conversations about money and time and the power dynamic that those things create?

Christy Bolingbroke:

I'm really mindful of my role and relationship to artists is what I can speak to. So when we set up something or have a conversation start to say, "We're going to build something together," we will start to have a monthly discussion and it's very generative. And I'm sure artists may think I'm losing my marbles and repeating myself over and over again, but I always start it by saying, "Anything I suggest is merely a suggestion, not an expectation. So it is your discretion to say I'm not interested in that. Or what about this instead. Or run with it if it really is satisfying to you."

Christy Bolingbroke:

The other thing, just from an operational standpoint, that we've achieved... So in going into our strategic planning process, we did do an assessment of what have we achieved in the last four plus years. And one of the things is that almost all of our programs are somehow shared, whether that is an artist-directed grant. They've gotten a grant from someone else and NCC Akron matches it to make a program happen. Or we have another partner that has a vested interest in exploring dance on film.

Christy Bolingbroke:

I'm trying to also dissipate the idea that NCC Akron has all the money and we just are the bank, but rather how can we aggregate resources is one of our core values. And to me that's a different kind of way to share power and be able to live that through. So we're looking for those opportunities. I think if... That's what I worry about artists right now, feeling the immediate squeeze. They were already pushing against institutions. And so then to have this sort of backlash and feel... It's like you lost your grip while you're already climbing up against the hill.

Tim Cynova:

We're going to take a little bit of a turn here before we close our show today because a number of years ago I also co-hosted a livestream and Christy was one of the first guests on that livestream. And it was something that I co-hosted with my friend, Sydney Skybetter. We called it #SKYNOVA because we just made up a name.

Tim Cynova:

And Christy, I don't know if you took this photo, but you certainly were right there in the room as we interviewed Robert Battle, artistic director of Alvin Ailey. This was maybe a day after it was announced that he was being appointed-

Christy Bolingbroke:

The new AD.

Tim Cynova:

... the new AD. And how far we've come. Also, this was actually recorded in my hotel room at the Dance USA conference, I think in DC, and we just invited all of our friends to be on this show, and we put it online, and-

Christy Bolingbroke:

There's about 25 of us behind whoever took that picture.

Tim Cynova:

Yeah, it's all crowded in and then yeah. Robert Sidney and I are there and I'm fairly confident that the first question that we asked Robert, this might've been one of the first interviews that he did after being appointed, was, "What color are unicorns?" So clearly that didn't last.

Christy Bolingbroke:

Can I offer up this perspective because I think it's relevant now with that, Tim.

Tim Cynova:

Please.

Christy Bolingbroke:

We were doing that in a hotel room because the existing structure, I'm not throwing shade, but the existing structure of the conference couldn't envision space for this wacky, what do you mean you're going to film this and it's not going to come from our institutional voice. And that was the days of social media where any institution was trying to really grip onto their methods and they were not willing to experiment with it. Obviously, we've evolved as a field with social media and then when I think about the moment and how many people are offering free classes online and doing different things. And I was within five years that Sky Nova became a more central part, at least publicly, as part of the Dance USA conference, too. So these things, just because there isn't institutional space for it, can you try it and then how will it morph? I'm really curious, how will online classes continue after this moment when people can actually record them in a studio?

Christy Bolingbroke:

I'm really interested, too, in how it's challenging our field to think about capacity. I've logged into a meditation class, which I normally would be a little wary of, if I'm to be honest, because I'm more [inaudible 00:25:23] , less "om." Because then there's 12 of us in a room and you're really self-conscious. There were 600 people logged on. That's a totally different idea.

Christy Bolingbroke:

Dance Church out of Seattle. They've been doing livestreams on Wednesdays and Sundays. Thousands of people. It's changing our ideas of what capacity could be. It's not going to work for everyone to move all of their shows online or all of their classes online, but new opportunities and avenues are being availed to us and it just takes one person to film it in their living room or hotel room. You got to get started somewhere.

Lauren Ruffin:

There's a power struggle happening right now about that because institutions, and we're all affiliated with large educational institutions, they are not going to let that go easily.

Christy Bolingbroke:

No.

Lauren Ruffin:

They are not going to let legitimacy enter the online space until they're ready for it. And so the question for me becomes how do we organize and how are we savvy enough to form new virtual institutions that carry the same sort of legitimacy and offer the same educational value as the ones that we've acceded power to already. And it's happening right now. I think we were talking about it. It might have been with Laura Zabel again around real estate and educational institutions, how they need those physical spaces. There's a lot actually of capital invested in creating physical spaces.

Christy Bolingbroke:

It's a lot easier to raise a capital campaign and build out a building, and you wish that they would raise a line item for a faculty position.

Lauren Ruffin:

Exactly, so I think this is a really interesting time to be thinking about those power dynamics.

Tim Cynova:

As we land the plane, Christy, what are your parting thoughts for us?

Christy Bolingbroke:

The same both personally as well as professionally. This opportunity of resetting, of trying new things and really thinking about what do I want to carry with me to the other side of this, and what do I want to let go during this period, and I would offer that up for everyone.

Tim Cynova:

Christy, thank you so much for joining us today. Thanks for being a friend for all these years. Have a great rest of the week.

Christy Bolingbroke:

Thanks. You all, too.

Tim Cynova:

Continue the Work. Shouldn't. Suck. Live adventure with us on our next episode when we're joined by Mara Walker, chief operating officer at Americans for the Arts. Miss us in the meantime? You can download more Work. Shouldn't. Suck. Episodes from your favorite podcasting platform of choice and rewatch Work. Shouldn't. Suck. Live episodes over on Workshouldntsuck.co.

Tim Cynova:

If you've enjoyed the conversation or are just feeling generous today, please consider writing a review on iTunes so that others who might be interested in the topic can join the fun, too. Give it a thumbs-up or five stars or phone a friend, whatever your podcasting platform of choice offers. If you didn't enjoy this chat, please tell someone about it who you don't like as much. Until next time, thanks for listening.

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Live with Deborah Cullinan! (EP.20)

Last Updated

April 9, 2020

Work. Shouldn't. Suck. LIVE: The Morning(ish) Show with special guest Deborah Cullinan, Chief Executive Officer, Yerba Buena Center for the Arts. [Live show recorded: April 8, 2020.]

Guest: Deborah Cullinan

Co-Hosts: Tim Cynova & Lauren Ruffin

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Guest

DEBORAH CULLINAN Yerba Buena Center for the Arts (YBCA) CEO Deborah Cullinan is one of the nation’s leading thinkers on the pivotal role arts organizations can play in shaping our social and political landscape, and has spent years mobilizing communities through arts and culture. Deborah is committed to revolutionizing the role art centers play in public life and during her tenure at YBCA, she has launched several bold new programs, engagement strategies, and civic coalitions. Prior to joining YBCA in 2013, she was the Executive Director of San Francisco’s Intersection for the Arts. She is a co-founder of CultureBank and ArtsForum SF, co-chair of the San Francisco Arts Alliance and on the board of the Community Arts Stabilization Trust. Her passion for using art and creativity to shift culture has made her a sought- after speaker at events and conferences around the world.

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Transcript

Tim Cynova:

Hi, I'm Tim Cynova and welcome to Work Shouldn't Suck Live, the morning-ish show. On today's episode, Lauren Ruffin and I are joined by Deborah Cullinan. Deborah is currently the Chief Executive Officer of the Yerba Buena Center for the Arts, found online at ybca.org. She's one of the nation's leading thinkers on the pivotal role arts organizations can play in shaping our social and political landscape and has spent years mobilizing communities through arts and cultures.

Tim Cynova:

Prior to joining YBCA, she was the Executive Director of Intersection for the Arts. She is a co-founder of Culture Bank and Arts Forum SF, Co-chair of the San Francisco Arts Alliance and on the board of Community Arts Stabilization Trust.

Tim Cynova:

Her passion for using art and creativity to shift culture has made her a sought after speaker at events and conferences around the world and we are excited she's joining us today. Without further ado, Deborah, welcome to the show.

Lauren Ruffin:

Hello, good morning. So excited to talk to you as always. I have been watching Jeopardy and I realize this week feels like champion's week. I'm so excited to see all the shiny faces that we have on our show this week. But first, Deborah, how are you? How's your community doing and what's happening in the Bay Area?

Deborah Cullinan:

Well, I am thrilled to be here too. I was just having a good time with the facts that came out yesterday, Lauren. Peanut butter and jelly.

Lauren Ruffin:

Oh, yeah.

Deborah Cullinan:

And I've been really inspired to get to join you guys in the morning and start the day this way. So thank you for what you're doing.

Deborah Cullinan:

I'm all right. I feel like I am very fortunate to be sheltering with my beautiful family and our cats and dog here in San Francisco. I feel like we are really lucky compared to a lot of other people.

Deborah Cullinan:

In California, as you guys probably know, things are happening a little differently and that we've got this flattened curve. I think for us what that means is a lot less urgency right now and a lot less pain and some time to prepare. It also does mean that we don't know how long this is all going to take. And I think that uncertainty is just [inaudible 00:02:05] for people, so I'm just feeling it.

Lauren Ruffin:

Yeah, the uncertainty is ... I mean, we're getting projections of this lasting anywhere from... We were getting the 30 day increment at the state level but anybody who's thinking further out realizes that we're going to be I think stuck in. Or this is going to become a cyclical part of the new norm for quite some time, possibly over a year or more.

Lauren Ruffin:

So Tim gave you a fantastic intro, but how do you typically talk about yourself and your work and what you do, because you've got your hands in so many different things?

Deborah Cullinan:

It's funny, I was backstage listening to that and just like, "Oh, my gosh!" I'm a mom, I'm an activist. I believe in the role that art and creativity can play in helping us imagine a better future for our world. My career in the arts is an odd one. I didn't come into it knowing that I was going to come into it. I didn't come into it with a formal background.

Deborah Cullinan:

My first gig as you mentioned, was at Intersection for the Arts and I stayed there for a really long time. In some ways I think that one of the strengths that I had is that I was just super naive. I didn't understand the arts, didn't get the field, had a lot of questions, didn't understand how an organization like Intersection, at the time, could be so venerable but also be so vulnerable.

Deborah Cullinan:

I didn't understand why arts organizations, and this is now I'm dating myself a long time ago, but why art organizations thought of art program and community program as two separate things?

Lauren Ruffin:

So with your YBCA hat on, because this is a live show about work, how has the way that YBCA's staff is working and what changes, what's shifted in the last month or so?

Deborah Cullinan:

I feel like one of the things that is really fortunate, if there are those things right now, is that we at YBCA have been undergoing a pretty radical transformation. We had been really considering how a multidisciplinary arts center can move from being a presenter on exhibition things to being highly transactional in terms of its relationship with artists and with audiences. How could it become a real creative home for its community?

Deborah Cullinan:

I think to do that, you've got to start with your team. You've got to practice what you're going to preach. So we've been working for years really at this work. I think people have to understand it takes such a long time, but we've been working for years to really think about the culture of the organization, how we work together.

Deborah Cullinan:

Lauren, you've been to the spot and one of the first things that we did was transform our workspace into a hub, much more of a coworking environment, much more of a collaboration space. In recent years, just in the last year or so, because I hardly know what day it is, we collapsed all of the curatorial departments.

Deborah Cullinan:

We created one program and engagement team and we really worked to be an organization, not a set of silos, not a bunch of different disciplines but a crew that is working together to try to achieve something. I think because of that we're tight knit.

Deborah Cullinan:

We had an all staff meeting yesterday and we rotate who facilitates it, got a group of people that are running all of that and really thinking about the culture of the organization. And there are all these things that are happening that I think are really beautiful. Every single day we get a piece of inspiration from a staff member, something personal, something they point us to along with any practical information we need.

Deborah Cullinan:

That might be from like in the early days of this, we're closed for another week to now information that we can share with artists who are on relief, things like this.

Deborah Cullinan:

One of our staff members, Julie May Lopez just launched a Happy Hour and a Movie and so she's getting all kinds of suggestions for movies that can be live streamed where people can watch together. We have something we call the Virtual Hub. Our collaboration space is called the hub in the physical world, so we made one in the virtual world.

Deborah Cullinan:

We have another staff member named [Mani 00:06:00] who just started a book club. We now have a resource list and one of the things that we are doing for each other is helping each other source hard to get things. The really good news for me is that I'm getting some yeast in the mail from Elizabeth so that my husband can make some bread.

Lauren Ruffin:

That's really helpful.

Deborah Cullinan:

Yeah, and that's the team. That's what happens when you really let people shape their space and build their culture.

Lauren Ruffin:

Yeah, so as was revealed yesterday, perhaps I'm a little bit culturally stunted, what movies were recommended thus far?

Deborah Cullinan:

I don't know the answer tonight yet.

Lauren Ruffin:

Okay, oh, it hasn't happened yet.

Tim Cynova:

Probably The Matrix and a tutorial about how to make peanut butter and jelly, Lauren?

Deborah Cullinan:

Yeah, yeah.

Lauren Ruffin:

All right, cool. I feel like there's some things we might want to crush an atlas in there.

Tim Cynova:

Yeah, it's a great list.

Tim Cynova:

Deborah, as you started, you were talking about un-siloing parts of the organization and leading the organization through uncertainty and into new things. Right now, organizations are very much in an uncertain time. I have some of my students from my leadership and team building course that I teach at the New School watching. As a leader who's done this, what advice do you have for leaders and organizations, people in organizations when they're having to go through change in uncertain times?

Deborah Cullinan:

All the stuff. The part where it takes a really long time. The part where it really is about a sense of purpose for people, right? If you can't help someone see their own place in change, they can't find it, and so really being as clear and as specific as possible.

Deborah Cullinan:

I think the flip side of that is you also have to create the conditions where people can live with ambiguity and the idea that change really is, and it's just constant. If we're going to be a relevant organization that is contributing to the community around us, we're going to change constantly.

Deborah Cullinan:

I think it's about that culture and it's about that building of a unit that can sort of navigate that together so that when you don't know where you are, where you're trying to go, somebody else has got your back. People are working together, you're not alone. I can't say it's been perfect. It's been really hard and definitely painful.

Tim Cynova:

Last week we were joined by Laura Zabel, a member of this past year's Powerhouse YBCA 100 Cohort. Scrolling down the website, the list of honorees is amazing. Abby Wambach, Adrian Marie Brown, Ali Wong, Billy Porter, Hassan Minaj, Lizzo.

Tim Cynova:

The list literally goes on and so could I, but why don't I stop for a second so that you can catch people up on what is the YBCA 100 and how awesome is it to have that thing with all of those amazing people?

Deborah Cullinan:

It is the most awesome. Here's the thing, [inaudible 00:08:43] a culture and the team of people that make up organizations like YBCA. The original idea, [inaudible 00:08:48], the original idea was he said, "Yo, Deborah, the people who work here at YBCA are just ...", and I'm using is language, "dope."

Deborah Cullinan:

These people are awesome and we've got to figure out something about top down territorial structures. We've got to figure out how to unleash and tap into the creativity, the connections, the networks of the people who come to work every day in organizations like this.

Deborah Cullinan:

The original idea was really like a team building, let's start this, this dopeness and let's understand this organization. We did this with the first year. It was this very intricate, a moti-designed approach to getting each department [inaudible 00:09:31] department to surface for us their 10 most exciting people, the 10 people who inspired them the most.

Deborah Cullinan:

Then we interviewed each other, we learned about the people and we had a day long retreat and we've settled on this list of 100. At exactly the same time we were hosting Vanity Fair's New Establishment Summit and are here.

Deborah Cullinan:

This is also a very awesome event, but I will be real about it. It tends to recycle or it did at least, tended to recycle the same couple of guys that were on the list. I was just sitting there in our conference room with all of these amazing YBCA staffers, looking at this list of diverse and beautiful people, some of whom I knew and was already inspired by, some that I'd never heard of before.

Deborah Cullinan:

It was just a no brainer. This is a public thing. This is something that we should give to the world and that we should share together and it also should become our organizing principle.

Deborah Cullinan:

So every year we name the names. We gather people around those names and then we work deeply with many of the list makers to understand how to pursue some of the most pressing questions that we're facing. It's a very timely question because we're thinking right now about where we're heading and how the way in which we were changing points us in the direction of this.

Deborah Cullinan:

Now, I have been very inspired by Arundhati Roy's piece that I think it came out maybe last week in the Financial Times. I think it's called The Pandemic is a Portal. What she's talking about, at least the way I read it, is that this is a portal that we have to move through and that we have a choice. We can either move through it, really heavily, with all of our baggage.

Deborah Cullinan:

We can bring the racism. We can bring the avarice. We can bring the trauma. We can bring it all with us and we can trudge and fight and try so hard to not move through it. Or we can move through it lightly with very little and if we do that we can change everything.

Deborah Cullinan:

For me, the 100 and the people who are most inspiring to us, those who are really addressing the biggest questions, they're going to carry us lightly through and we have to follow them. Our organization needs to figure out how to do that,

Lauren Ruffin:

That's, one makes me want to get behind the Financial Times paywall, but I do worry about all of the structures that people are so interested in getting back to normal. I mean in their little box of normal, that I feel like we're not having those conversations about how much we should. That's really super powerful.

Deborah Cullinan:

I have to take care because I understand that to move lightly through we have to grieve. Maybe some people were already heading there and so there's less to agree, less to mourn. Where for others it feels all lost. I do understand that first we have to help those who are still heavy to kind of lighten that load.

Deborah Cullinan:

Lauren, I forwarded you a cheers with this, remember?

Deborah Cullinan:

I just think of our arts ecosystem as this extraordinary creative resource. It's up to us. What do we want to do with it? How do we reimagine it so that we can better serve the creativity in our communities and so that we can position the arts as the missing piece.

Deborah Cullinan:

We all know that if we don't build the capacity of our arts ecosystem to work across sectors to help fuel change, we're just not going to get unstuck, as a field but also, I think in the world.

Lauren Ruffin:

Yeah, you and I have talked about that a lot around the, and you said it earlier, how it seems to me the arts and culture sector sees itself living outside of the world with everyone else.

Lauren Ruffin:

I think you're spot on around the need to be collaborative with other sectors if we're going to get through this. I've also really been gravitating towards world builders and writers who are really helping us see what all the possibility that's out there. I'm in the process of digging through ... The Hugo and Nebula awards nominees were announced yesterday.

Deborah Cullinan:

Oh, really.

Lauren Ruffin:

Yeah, so I'm going down that list and ordering, not from Amazon but from Bookshop. I'm feeling really hungry for new ways of thinking and of imagining what can happen.

Tim Cynova:

We have a question from one of our viewers, a frequent viewer. "How is YBCA engaging its cashflow challenges in this moment while retaining, sustaining, honoring its values?"

Deborah Cullinan:

First and foremost, the thing we're thinking a lot about is the disproportionately vulnerable nature of the arts workforce. Right? We're really trying to maintain the staff and take good care of people. We're going to be announcing an Artist For Me Funds soon.

Deborah Cullinan:

For us it's really thinking carefully about that and not just in the short term, not just right now keeping people whole, but thinking about what does it look like to develop the workforce of tomorrow? To the earlier point, how do we think about the arts a little differently and drive demand for artists to work to bring their gifts in service of this larger community issues that we're facing?

Deborah Cullinan:

YBCA, in terms of cash flow, we're okay right now. This is obviously not an easy time but we had already been thinking about restructuring even the way we look at revenue. Moving away from what I would call for lack of better words, a more traditional development shop with a Chief Development Officer and really rethinking things like membership program and thinking a lot about how we can drive revenue through partnerships in service of these broader concerns.

Deborah Cullinan:

A really good example of that right now is that we are collaborating with San Francisco's Office of Civic Engagement and Immigrant Affairs, working specifically on a very large artist-driven project focused on the Census. Specifically, I'm reaching the hard to count communities in San Francisco and raising awareness around those stakes that we face with the Census and this population count.

Deborah Cullinan:

This was brought to us through an extraordinary person named Amy Kish who built this partnership with OCEIA this Office of Civic Engagement and Immigrant Affairs so that we could work together. What that does for me is it's kind of a no brainer because we're positioning the art and artists as an essential component of a large campaign that will drive participation in civic life. We're also creating financial opportunities for every single one of the artists that we're working with and it's a partnership that brings revenue to YBCA in order for us to hold the structure.

Tim Cynova:

Also another question from one of our frequent viewers, "If the 100 are a source of great hope, what do you see as the greatest barriers to the necessary reimagination and capacity building?"

Deborah Cullinan:

If I'm understanding the question in terms of reimagination and capacity building for YBCA, I think the big barriers for organizations like YBCA and in terms of the reimagination and the capacity building in our world, to me the biggest barrier is actually the lack of imagination and the fear. It's not being willing to take big risks on leadership like those people that are in the YBCA 100, to move us forward. It's sort of a lack of imagination around how we invest in creativity and why we should invest in it first.

Tim Cynova:

That's often one of the biggest disconnects I find working in the cultural sector where there's amazing art that we're producing, we're presenting. Then you look behind the scenes at the organization, you're like, "Well, this is run like any other organization in the 1980s. Why don't we use some of that creativity to create the space that we want, that we want to work in rather than what is prescribed out of a book?"

Tim Cynova:

We have a, "Yes," and a, "Thanks," from your answer. There's about a 30-second lag between when people post online and when we actually see them in the studio. I was able to mark time until that yes came through.

Deborah Cullinan:

Well done. Well done.

Tim Cynova:

Yeah, that's right. Thanks. This is also one of those times where I used to take minutes at the board meetings in previous roles and then the conversation got really good and then I forgot that I was the one taking board minutes and then I was like, "Oh crap. I need to go back."

Lauren Ruffin:

I'm the worst note taker. I'm so bad at it.

Tim Cynova:

I feel like that, because I'm like, "This is a great conversation." Then like, "Oh wait, there's other stuff going on that I should be a part of.

Lauren Ruffin:

One of the things I'm also curious about is mission. You've talked about bringing artists into the workforce when thinking about Census. In New Mexico the Census is a really big deal because we have so many super rural communities that are hard to count. Are you looking at your mission differently and or is it simply the how that you're going about achieving the mission is starting to shift or you're thinking about how it might shift?

Deborah Cullinan:

I'm not sure that we're looking at the mission differently. Our mission is really about a belief that art centers, arts organizations can put their resources toward spurring cultural movement. We're very inspired by our board member, Jeff Chang when he talks about the idea that culture precedes change. We want to be part of the change. We want to be able to measure that change.

Deborah Cullinan:

We don't think it's a bad thing to ask an art center or artists to think about how their work fuels societal change. That feels, if anything, it's just more crisp for us now and where we were heading. It's even more clear how we can become an integrated forum, an institute that really is deploying artists in service of civic and public life.

Deborah Cullinan:

When I say that, I know that there's all this art as utility, all of this stuff and it's like, no, it's got to be both hands. We've got to not be afraid of that. We have to believe that we are contributing. If we're afraid to believe that we contribute then we're not trying to contribute.

Tim Cynova:

We have another viewer question coming in here. "Is there a legislative action we should be collectively working to advance?"

Deborah Cullinan:

I think that's a great question. I think as many people do. You had Laura Zabel on last week, and I know she thinks about this a lot as well. I think we can look to programs that have existed in the past like the WPA or the CETA program or even here in San Francisco, the Neighborhood Arts Program.

Deborah Cullinan:

I think whatever we do legislatively, especially in terms of the next Care package or the next relief and recovery package, we should really be thinking about not the arts in a silo, I believe. Not fund the arts, but let's create systems where the arts are integrated and so necessary that they are funded perhaps even more than they are going to be If we just sit outside saying, "We need money. We need help."

Deborah Cullinan:

We have to be of service. We have to be part of moving through the portal. I would think about workforce programs on a federal level. For me, I think the biggest stuff that's going to happen, obviously for a variety of reasons, it's going to be at the local level. So it's about getting federal funding down into the hands of local leaders who can really move policy.

Tim Cynova:

You're a high performing leader in a challenging time. In the best of times being a leader, it can be isolating, can be challenging. How do you approach your resilience and self care in a moment like this?

Deborah Cullinan:

Well, at the beginning I mentioned that I feel very fortunate. I'm home with my husband and my son. We have this amazing energetic nine-month-old Husky and a couple of cats that don't get along but they're very cute. There's a lot about family and about connecting with friends who can inspire right now that feels just really, really central. I think it's super important to take a little bit of time every single day. Where I am, I can go outside and walk safely or take a run safely and that is just a super important part of the routine.

Lauren Ruffin:

Appreciating like those little things that I've always, I shouldn't say I've always taken for granted, but I even more grateful just like outside space. I look at Tim. I'm fairly certain that Tim is like now a part of the chair that he's sitting in, between the ankle and New York.

Lauren Ruffin:

So the leadership, one of the things I've been thinking a lot around leadership right now is that balance between being a happy warrior in the face of everything that's going on and then, how are you talking to your people at like a real level around the change? What's coming and ... I don't know, are you feeling down? How do you maintain the moments of depression and grief that do creep in when you're still having you're leave. I feel like sometimes we can't always be transparent. Do you find that happening to yourself?

Deborah Cullinan:

Yeah, I got really, really, really sad last night when I heard that John Prine had passed away. It just brought me back to a certain moment in my life. I had this really weird occasion where I met him very briefly. It's just those moments when something hits you and it's so real.

Deborah Cullinan:

Also, I'm feeling very deeply for some YBCA staff members whose situations have changed so much and they're not ideal, whether it's a roommate situation or a single mom who didn't plan on being alone with her baby boy. All of that stuff. For me, I guess we've got to see that what is so sad and hard about all of this, but how it actually just reveals what was already so sad and wrong.

Deborah Cullinan:

I think about Rebecca Solnit when she talked about the difference between optimism and hope. Optimism being like, "Yeah, it's all cool. So I'm just going to sit back," and hope being, "I believe in something and I'm going to act." That's what keeps me going.

Lauren Ruffin:

My penultimate question is, what's your prediction for how we come out of this?

Deborah Cullinan:

Wow. Okay, so let's go with hope. Let's stick with where I was. It got a little dark there for a second.

Lauren Ruffin:

See, you're like going to manage the response. It's so hard.

Deborah Cullinan:

The thing is we can't come out of this the same. We just can't. It wasn't right. It wasn't fair. It wasn't working and we have to be willing to admit that. I want to believe that we will and we will come to something so beautiful that there will just be art and creativity everywhere.

Lauren Ruffin:

Awesome.

Lauren Ruffin:

Well, Tim, you going to land the plane or you want me to?

Tim Cynova:

Oh, I can land the plane. Actually, if I was landing the plane, we would not want to be on this plane right now. Lauren looks at me like, "You're doing this?"

Tim Cynova:

I'm like, "I wasn't planning on it."

Lauren Ruffin:

I think it was the New Yorker, the cartoon where it's like, "How many of you think this pilot's not doing their job and you want me to land this plane?" You know, this random person standing up.

Tim Cynova:

Deborah, it was so great to start our day with you. Thank you so much for taking time to sit down and chat with us.

Deborah Cullinan:

Thank you. Thank you both. It was awesome.

Tim Cynova:

Continue the Work Shouldn't Suck Live adventure with us on our next episode when we're joined by Christy Bolingbroke, Executive and Artistic Director of the National Center for Choreography at the University of Akron.

Tim Cynova:

Miss us in the meantime, you can download more Work. Shouldn't. Suck. episodes from your favorite podcasting platform of choice and rewatch Work. Shouldn't. Suck. LIVE episodes over on workshouldntsuck.co. If you've enjoyed the conversation or are just feeling generous today, please consider writing a review in iTunes so that others who might be interested in the topic can join the fun too. Give it a thumbs up or five stars or phone a friend, whatever your podcasting platform of choice offers. If you didn't enjoy this chat, please tell someone about it who you don't like as much. Until next time, thanks for listening.

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Live with F. Javier Torres-Campos! (EP.19)

Last Updated

April 9, 2020

Work. Shouldn't. Suck. LIVE: The Morning(ish) Show with special guest F. Javier Torres-Campos, Director, Thriving Cultures, Surdna Foundation. [Live show recorded: April 7. 2020.]

Guest: F. Javier Torres-Campos

Co-Hosts: Tim Cynova & Lauren Ruffin

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Guest

F. JAVIER TORRES-CAMPOS serves as Program Director of the Thriving Cultures program overseeing a $9 million grantmaking portfolio seeking to advance the Foundation’s social justice mission. His career has been committed to building just and sustainable communities in partnership with artists and culture/tradition bearers.

Prior to joining Surdna, Javier served as the Director of National Grantmaking at ArtPlace America. In his role, he was responsible for building a comprehensive set of demonstration projects that illustrated the many ways in which arts and culture can strengthen the processes and outcomes of the planning and development field across the United States. Under his leadership, the National Creative Placemaking Fund at ArtPlace supported 279 creative placemaking projects totaling $86.4 million across 46 states, the District of Columbia, American Samoa, Puerto Rico, and the U.S. Virgin Islands.

Prior to ArtPlace, Javier was Senior Program Officer for Arts and Culture at the Boston Foundation where he led an exploration of the role of culture as a tool for transformation, sustainability, and as central to the development of vibrant communities. Javier also spent six years as the Director of Villa Victoria Center for the Arts, a program of IBA, a community based multi-disciplinary arts complex that operates as a regional presenter and local programmer for Latino arts.

Javier was a board member for Grantmakers in the Arts and an advisory board member for the Design Studio for Social Intervention. He has previously served as a board member for the National Association of Latino Arts and Cultures, MASSCreative, was a member of the MA Governor’s Creative Economy Council and Chair for the Boston Cultural Council.

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Transcript

Tim Cynova:

Hi, I'm Tim Cynova and welcome to Work. Shouldn't. Suck. LIVE: The Morning(ish) Show. On today's episode, Lauren Ruffin and I are joined by Javier Torres. Javier is currently the Director of the Surdna Foundation's Thriving Cultures Program, where he oversees a grantmaking portfolio seeking to advance the foundation's social justice mission. Prior to Surdna, he's done a number of things including serving as the Director of National Grant Making at Art Place America, served as a Senior Program Officer for Arts and Culture at the Boston Foundation, was the Director of the Villa Victoria Center for the Arts, was a Board Member for Grantmakers in the Arts, and once when we were both attending a conference in Los Angeles, he recommended a coffee shop that served one of the best cappuccinos I've ever had. Without further ado, Javier, welcome to the show.

Javier Torres:

Good morning y'all. How you doing?

Lauren Ruffin:

Good. I didn't know this about the LA coffee situation.

Javier Torres:

It was G&B, right Tim?

Tim Cynova:

Yeah.

Javier Torres:

Yeah. It's in Grand Central Market. It's one of the most amazing magical places. You get to go, it's open air. They make a lot of ice drinks that they actually use cocktail shakers and it just gets a special froth and a special flavor. The coffee beans are really roasted well. So I'm a coffee junkie.

Lauren Ruffin:

Okay. You're always good for a good restaurant recommendation. So I'm not surprised. I just didn't know that was a connection y'all shared.

Javier Torres:

Yeah.

Lauren Ruffin:

So Javier, super excited to talk to you as always. You always drop some nuggets of wisdom, but first just a quick check in. How are you doing and how's your community doing?

Javier Torres:

Times are hard. I have been inside since March 1st when I flew home from the For Freedoms Congress in Los Angeles. We were being given some flexibility by the office to decide whether we wanted to travel in to the office and I realized that there were at least three staff members that lived in the epicenter of the breakout between Westchester and New Rochelle. So I recommended to my team to stay home. As much as I can, I think I'm really trying to stay focused on checking in with family and friends. I'm lucky enough that I live close to Prospect Park, so I take some walks and taking it day by day. I've been inside now, Friday will be six weeks. It's intense, it's hard, and I think it's just important for us all to do if we want this thing to wrap itself up so that we can begin to get back to some level of normalcy.

Lauren Ruffin:

When you popped on screen in the green room, I was thinking about, I know so much about what your life usually looks like with the travel and the working out. I didn't realize you'd been inside for six weeks. How are you maintaining some sense of normalcy because you're on the go?

Javier Torres:

All the time. I am fortunate enough that my good friend and trainer Corey lives not too far from me. We've made some agreements about how we each travel through the city and he is still coming to me three or four days a week to help me with workouts in my apartment, which has been a godsend because I'm fortunate enough to live in a full service building in Brooklyn, but they closed the gym in my building so I have no weights. But it's been good. On days he's not here, he sends me workouts and interestingly enough, good timing. I bought myself an Apple watch four weeks before this all started and for anybody who has one, they have the rings of activity. You set these daily goals about how many calories you're going to burn or how often you're moving. So that's kept me going.

Javier Torres:

I try to keep a routine. I actually get out of my pajamas every morning and make sure that I get dressed. Although I realized that sometimes it's nice not to, and usually by 7:30 I'm winding down. I'm an early morning guy. I get up at five o'clock to start my day and have my coffee and read the news. But that's the way that I've been trying to do it. Also, quite frankly limiting how many people I can stay in touch with. I'm fortunate enough that because of my work, I've traveled throughout the country and know so many amazing, beautiful people that are used to checking in with me once or twice a year, which is manageable. But now everybody wants to talk every other day and it's just humanly impossible. I'm an introvert, I need to have some time alone to process my own feelings and thoughts and I've been trying to figure out what are those little self care moments and just being okay to say I need to be still and not talk to anybody.

Lauren Ruffin:

Prior to this I was pretty, because I've been working remote for the last four years and so getting dressed every morning wasn't as important to me.

Javier Torres:

Yeah.

Lauren Ruffin:

Full disclosure. But I'm getting up and putting on clothes. I'm not putting on hard pants.

Javier Torres:

Sure. Right. Right.

Lauren Ruffin:

I am at least changing from my evening wear to my day wear. In terms of, you mentioned everyone wanting to stay in touch, how are you communicating with your grantees and can you share a little bit about what your thoughts and messaging is on what a funder's support to their grantees can look like right now or Surdna is sort of approaching that?

Javier Torres:

I think what I've tried to recognize is that everybody needs something different. We created sort of an institutional message that went out to all of our partners about the way in which we wanted to be of support and provide flexibility with grants, with grant reports and applications in this particular moment in time. There are a lot of foundations that are trying to be first out to figure out what is the thing we need to do? What is the fund we need to create? How do we do conference calls nonstop with our grantees so that everyone can process? It has been my perspective that I don't want to take up any more of anybody's time. Folks are already being drained with additional needs in their communities and so we sent two followup messages to our partners and to our direct grantees used for the thriving cultures portfolio to say, "You saw the message from our president, you know the flexibility that you have, but we don't know what we don't know and we're not going to bombard you with requests for your time. You need to let us know what you need from us."

Javier Torres:

Folks have been generous to reach out. Some folks wanted a little bit more of a coached or facilitated conversation, which we were able to do for those that wanted to, but my personal perspective has been just to respect that these are all human beings that have full-on lives, that they need to now manage and maintain both work and home in this crisis, which creates all kinds of other limitations and requirements for who they are. The foundation is being measured. We're really trying to think about the three phases of response and not being reactionary. So we really start first with thinking critically about how do we look at unspent administrative dollars for this fiscal year for us that ends June 30th? How do we convert those to grant-making dollars?

Javier Torres:

What are the other pools of money that folks expected to spend that they just aren't? So there were some communications grantmaking and membership grantmaking that was going to happen that's being repurposed. Beyond that, we're really thinking of the immediate emergency response that needs to happen now for human beings who need to pay rent or a mortgage or get food or being able to buy some hand sanitizer or whatever it is that people need. Then there is as life somewhat begins to go back to normal, what is the investment that we need to do to ensure that nonprofits can get back off the ground? We've been thinking a lot about how do we keep people's payrolls open. And then finally knowing that this is going to last for a long time. The impacts of this are going to fundamentally change our world.

Javier Torres:

Some of our strategy and thriving cultures really anticipated this disruption to our world. It's a world-building strategy that's about imagining the systems and structures we need to build so that we can withstand these kinds of impacts. Then some of it is about the additional resources that we'll have to distribute or how we'll do those. It's a bit of a balancing act. We've taken a hit to the endowment and there are some folks in the foundation that are interested in increasing spending because of the way that the foundation uses a 12 quarter average to determine its annual spending limit. Right now we won't see the impact of that on our budget, but we will in two or three years when the full impact of this decline in the market actually is showing up in the 12 market average or the 12th quarter average.

Javier Torres:

So it's a little bit of, let's wait, let's listen, let's learn and making sure that we are as present and available as possible for folks to know that we're available if there's something that they want and need.

Tim Cynova:

You mentioned world-building, and correct me if I'm wrong, Lauren Ruffin wears a lot of hats literally and figuratively, but one of the hats that she wears is as Cofounder of Crux and I remember something about you all working together on a world-building game or exercise. Is that indeed correct?

Javier Torres:

It is correct.

Tim Cynova:

Great.

Javier Torres:

Lauren can probably talk a little bit about Crux if you haven't before.

Lauren Ruffin:

Yeah. I've spoken about it on the show, but I feel like everything that we talk about is about really designing a world, the world we want to see and also recognizing the one that we live in to really pull it apart. And the game we did wasn't as much a world-building game, but it was a game on venture capital investment and sort of coming up with profiles and having funders and investors and walk through various profiles to show the sort of hidden barriers, the implicit bias that exists and who's able to access capital. That was a fun game.

Javier Torres:

It was.

Lauren Ruffin:

It was a year ago and-

Javier Torres:

Because so much of the work you're doing with Crux is about building future infrastructure.

Lauren Ruffin:

Yeah, Exactly.

Javier Torres:

That's a conversation that we've been in with Angie Kim and with lots of others that have recognized for so long that our current systems don't serve our creative community. What are cooperative ownership models and alternative economies that really value love and generosity and abundance and assign values to those things as opposed to our current scarcity models that have already been proven to be false.

Lauren Ruffin:

I think we're seeing so many of those things that ethos rise to the top right now. I applaud Surdna because we talk a lot about all the various roles that you can play in movement building and I think there were a lot of foundations who were first out of the gate and already after the CARES Act passed people are talking about having sort of multiple phases of this because it looks like we're not talking about what people are going to do in April, but we're talking about probably in terms of for the art sector in particular, probably an 18 to 24 month recovery. I mean I'm talking to artists who couldn't pay rent on this past Wednesday, won't be able to pay rent for the next probably, they will have work probably for four to six months, so I think I really applaud you thinking about the long game. Has there been a conversation at Surdna, I know that y'all are a funder who doesn't provide funds directly to individual artists. Has there been a conversation about revisiting that policy?

Javier Torres:

Yeah, so it started before COVID became a pandemic or was named a pandemic that we knew we wanted to work with intermediaries that are part of our regranting strategy at the moment and that we needed to file the paperwork as an institution to be able to do individual giving. That's heightened at this particular moment because when you really think about where does the emergency money need to go, people have just started GoFundMe accounts because they have access to commercial kitchens. They have a car and they're trying to get food money, gas money, protective masks and cleaning supplies. For the folks that can't pay rent, can't buy food, can't get out of their home, and we can't legally in most cases give money to those GoFundMe accounts without making it extremely onerous on them and on ourselves.

Javier Torres:

So we are having that conversation. I think it's something that's absolutely necessary for us to do as 102 year old institution who's currently undergoing a complete internal policy review over the course of the next 12 months. It's one of the things that our relatively new CEO, whose just a little over a year in, Don Chen, really asked us to do is to make sure that all of our policies across the foundation are in alignment with the values that we publicly state. Those are questions and an analysis that hasn't been done in a long time so it'll be part of that process, including other things like thinking about the maximum grants that we can make. Right now, our maximum grants are three years. There's consideration for going to longer and just having all of those conversations with our board so that we can move forward and make sure that we are living that social justice value. Not just saying that we're a social justice foundation.

Lauren Ruffin:

Tim, do you have anything?

Tim Cynova:

Oh, yeah.

Lauren Ruffin:

I have so many questions, but I don't want to dominate the conversation-

Tim Cynova:

Go ahead. Go ahead.

Lauren Ruffin:

But you know I could do that.

Tim Cynova:

Go ahead Lauren.

Lauren Ruffin:

So I had a conversation with one of our other, we've asked a couple of our guests this question as we're looking to the future. What do you think is going to happen? We talked about that sort of 18 to 24 month timeline, but how do you think the world opens back up again? And how do you think artists begin to reenter the world? It's dangerous, but do you have any predictions?

Javier Torres:

So here's the thing. I, as a reader of Octavia Butler, I'm anticipating some ugly moments in our future. I've already started to see some of those with friends in Harlem that have been victims of hate crimes from people in their buildings, not even from strangers on the street. And then seeing the sort of multiple repercussions of what's happening in our society, where at least there was a small business that was able to support that individual in Harlem. They called the police, they filed a report, but the courts are closed. So that person knows somebody in their building who wants to physically harm them and cannot file a restraining order to keep them away because the legal system right now isn't up and running for that to happen. And so I think that I've heard of people's cars being broken into at stoplights because people are desperate right now.

Javier Torres:

And I think we need to recognize that. I don't understand how it is that when the market is in free fall, the federal government and the fed are very comfortable stopping trading, but they haven't been able to see the equivalent around a mortgage, utility and rent freeze that can benefit everybody. We're in free fall. Ain't nobody got no money. And so I'm concerned that we're going to be dealing with a much larger homeless population. I'm concerned that our current social infrastructure isn't prepared to deal with the homeless populations that we have. And that's going to have a lot of impact in our day to day sort of social interactions when people again are increasing in their desperation just to survive.

Javier Torres:

The optimist in me has been really focused on connecting with folks that understand that thoughts and energy and ideas and stories can build worlds. The way that our world is ordered is because in general a few men got into a room and decided that something was going to happen a certain way and so what does it look like for us to make decisions intentionally about how we're going to engage with those around us, our neighbors, strangers on the street, people in the grocery store and sort of getting clearer and clearer about our circle of influence and the impact that we can have and if we're all paying attention to that, then there's a way for us to fundamentally shift what happens when the world tries to return to normal.

Javier Torres:

There've been lots of conversations online to encourage folks to think about, yeah, you miss outside, but does the normal that you are used to, is that really something you want to return to? The grind culture of working 10 to 12 hour days, working six days a week or even five days a week. That I think that this is a really powerful moment for to realize, look, for example, as people of color we've been told that for black people in this country, that reparations weren't something that the federal government was capable of doing, that it would bankrupt this country. And now we're seeing that, oh they can just write a $1,200 check to 85% of families across the country plus $500 per child or dependent. So the money's always there. It's about the will and we all are responsible for imagining, believing and then shifting our own behavior in order to change that world so that these potentially really negative things that can happen don't take such strong holds in our society.

Javier Torres:

There are a lot of power grabs in the federal government right now, and we've been thinking about the watchdogs and nonprofit advocacy organizations that need support because this is what governments and people in power typically do is that when there is chaos, it's the opportunity to consolidate power. And so I think we all just need to be diligent about those small things. It is where we have control. It is where we have power and not try to save the world, not try to be out there thinking that somebody like me, yes, I sit in a very privileged position, but I actually don't have millions of dollars in a bank account that I get to authorize to write checks to. So my prediction is things could be really ugly. My hope that I hold on to is I actually believe in human beings and I believe that there are enough of us that are beginning to take that red pill, proverbial red pill from the matrix are beginning to see the code and not just the design and thinking about the ways in which we can shift power and shift our society for the better.

Lauren Ruffin:

Confession. I've never seen the Matrix.

Javier Torres:

Wow. Wow. That's amazing.

Lauren Ruffin:

You guys heard it here first.

Tim Cynova:

Yeah, wow Lauren.

Javier Torres:

I love that.

Lauren Ruffin:

It's one of those major cultural touchstones that I at this point know enough about to know about, but I can laugh and smile and be like, oh yeah, the Matrix ha ha ha. Never seen it.

Tim Cynova:

And now you're just not going to see it because you made it this far.

Lauren Ruffin:

Yeah, I've actually that's, usually my secret is that I've never had a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, but this is-

Javier Torres:

Wow.

Lauren Ruffin:

Yeah.

Javier Torres:

Oh my God. They're actually kind of delicious.

Lauren Ruffin:

But the Matrix is another secret.

Javier Torres:

[crosstalk 00:17:09] mom has been so lazy, she doesn't want to cook and she's just been eating peanut butter and jelly.

Tim Cynova:

Wow. We are covering a lot of ground in this episode. I mean, no one expected those last two things.

Lauren Ruffin:

But yeah, I mean I think, I worry about that stuff Javier. In New Mexico, we had the biggest gun sales last month. One of my regular biking routes is past one of the big firearms suppliers here. And the majority of gun purchasers were first time gun owners. You can walk in and buy a gun here, which means you've got kids at home all day with people who probably don't have gun safes. I just keep thinking about what are the repercussions of this sort of moment where everyone is fearful. So yeah, I think you're spot on. Are your colleagues and sort of, are they adjusting to remote work? Are you hearing anything from them and sort of practically how is certain a setup to work remote for the near future, for the longterm future?

Javier Torres:

It has been a mixed bag. I have to be honest, I have peers who've lost friends this past weekend. I have a peer that just lost their father to COVID this morning. There are folks on various teams that have been living with family to save money and now are in a position where they're trying to figure out, do I have enough bandwidth so that I can work all day on my wifi. There are folks that are in lower positions, roles inside of the foundation have limited minutes, but they're expected to be on their phone all day making phone calls. So I'm grateful that the foundation created a new homeworking reimbursement policy and allocated a sizable amount of dollars per each employee, whether they were part time or full time, didn't matter. Everybody got to purchase the things that they needed, so I was able to get a mouse, a keyboard.

Javier Torres:

I bought this amazing pad for my floor so that I'm not sitting in a chair all day and my legs don't get tired, an extra monitor for my laptop so that we can try and be as ergonomic as possible and so some folks are increasing their bandwidth on their wifi. Some folks are able to increase their minutes on their cell phone and I think that's been helpful, but I've personally just been encouraging folks that we need to give each other grace. If that means you can't work a five day work week, then fine, let's restructure and don't work a five day work week. If that means that these eight to 10 hour days are too long and you need to start later or end earlier, then we just need to figure that out. The first thing that the foundation did was to create a policy of unlimited sick days that we just needed to register them, but that they would not be deducted from our accumulated sick days based on our benefit packages.

Lauren Ruffin:

That's great.

Javier Torres:

So I've been reminding folks, sick days can be mental health days, sick days can be emotional wellbeing days. You don't need to be going to the doctor or taking care of somebody who is coughing up a lung. You just actually need to think about your whole humanity. And so we've been trying to hold it together with that. One of my teammates is trying to move, was supposed to move on April 1st and there are lots of restrictions about how and when that can happen now in a place like New York City and trying to figure out how we get her into a safer, quieter space where she can both take care of work and take care of herself. But those are just the realities of this changing world. I've been reading articles about folks that are stuck inside now in physically abusive relationships.

Lauren Ruffin:

Oh I know, yeah.

Javier Torres:

While that I know of, that's not happening inside of the Surdna Foundation staff, but it's real. We just never know what people's living conditions are and we make assumptions about the fact that just because they work at a high powered institution that their lives are okay, but these are humans with real problems that are, we're all just trying to do the best that we can do. So it's a little bit of just emotional support, some financial support and then providing as much flexibility as possible. One of the other conversations that came up recently in our, we have weekly staff meetings now where we try to bring everybody together, was the real question of there were lots of plans that we had going on before this all started. And so folks were trying to keep those plans on track and do all this other work and somebody finally rang the bell to say maybe we just press pause on anything that we were planning in advance unless it actually addresses the current moment and needs of human beings, which I appreciate and now is an evolving discussion at Surdna.

Lauren Ruffin:

I think that's really smart. One of the conversations that I can't remember if we were talking about it internally at [inaudible 00:21:27] or it popped up on the live stream last week was everyone is sort of issuing laptops to employees and in large cities in particular you have a lot of folks who are living with unrelated roommates and so there's been a rash of laptop theft that's happening, like sort of living with someone who's going to steal. Sometimes the technology actually creates an unsafe environment for folks so I think it's great that we're having that conversation as an organization because we just think about take a whole laptop, this is great, doing you a favor and it's actually not doing someone a favor at all.

Javier Torres:

Absolutely. Yeah. I think most so many of us, and that's one of the fundamental problems is that we don't think holistically about how we're caring for people. We sometimes fall into this idea of, oh well we have so we can offer something that will fundamentally improve somebody's life, but we don't always think about the negative externalities. And it's part of what I admire about the work that the two of you have always done and that I think Surdna really tries to do is to ask the folks that are going to be most impacted by this whether or not it's a good idea before we pull the trigger on something. Is this what you actually need? Otherwise maybe we shouldn't do it.

Lauren Ruffin:

Switching gears a little bit to ask you to put on your GIA Board Member hat, what are you hearing from the field at large and sort of how's GIA thinking about, you have a conference coming up in the fall that I saw. We've extended the deadline for proposals and that sort of thing. So I think sort of my penultimate question, gatherings, which is the thing that GIA does. How is the board, how is an organization approaching gathering right now?

Javier Torres:

The bio that I sent you, as I mentioned, is outdated. So I haven't been a board member for GIA for about a year and a half, but it needs to be updated. But I am the co-chair for this year's conference. So the question is still totally relevant. No, I mean I think what I'm hearing nationally is that everyone's just trying to figure out, there are folks that are worried about the big institutions that generate a good amount of earned revenue and especially the mid and smalls that rely on that. I think some of the more critical thinkers are recognizing that any impact that we're seeing on organizations is exacerbated when you get down to the humans, whether it's the staff or the contract workers that were hired for those performances. If the foundations aren't given the flexibility for payments to be made, whether or not the events happen. And those are some of the sort of transitions that we need go through that we need to think through is that while we fund it for a certain amount of engagement, the reality is people just need to get paid and we need to forgive.

Javier Torres:

And so I have been letting folks know, wherever possible, just like GIA, things are moving to virtual. So in a couple of weeks I am doing a webinar on new economy for artists with Angie Kim and with Dr. Jeffreen Hayes from Threewalls Gallery in Chicago organized by GIA to really think about what are the four thinking ideas for the infrastructure that artists need to be able to capitalize on their contributions to society. So I'm excited for Angie and Jeffreen and to be able to have that conversation because I think there are two of the foremost thinkers along those lines. Recognizing what appropriate support actually looks like. From an event perspective, we've already raised as a committee whether we should be continued planning for GIA. Some folks when the deadline got extended by two weeks, were like, why bother? This isn't going to work out. And the reality is that contracts were signed for hotels, so until the hotel says that they won't be legally open, we kind of have to keep planning at least through labor day for a November event until we have a better sense of what's going to happen.

Javier Torres:

The good news is that the theme that was selected for the conference is still relevant. There are lots of conversations about do we move the convening to the springtime in the case that the hotel will let us out of the contract, they'll be happy to have us on another date. So that's a whole operational question too about a shift in programming that impacts the staff and impacts other conferences that people might have anticipated they'd be participating in in the spring because this is typically happening in the fall. Beyond that, there have been conversations about does the full conference move to virtual? Many of us just think it's unrealistic. Allied Media Conference just announced that they're moving their full conference to being virtual after not having done one last year for their Chrysalis year as they thought about the next generation or iteration of their organization and how it would support the field.

Javier Torres:

I believe in that community figuring out how they're going to do that well because they've historically been great at re-imagining the way that people connect around important conversations or conversations that are important to them. And I have great skepticism about this kind of engagement, effectively replacing our ability to do certain things, learn certain things, and have authentic conversations. So I don't know. I mean, we're moving forward and trying to continue to provide content, whether that's in written form, whether that's a webinar or a virtual conversation. There have been national conference calls for funders to come together to organize, collaborate, coordinate. And so all of that's happening. Just like you were asking about the, I don't know if you asked before or after we started the official stream about the $75 million fund that's been created to support individual artists that's being led by Creative Capital and USA artists, which I think is exciting and great and fantastic.

Javier Torres:

But the other conversation that's being had is do those two organizations actually get the money to those that are most in need? Are they supporting the radical cultural organizer in the South? Do they recognize them within their criteria? And if not, does there needs to be another entity with a whole other fund that it's going to support. So I know there's been conversation about the participants in the Intercultural Leadership Institute that include the National Association of Latino Arts and Culture, PA'I Foundation, First Peoples Fund and Alternate Roots to have a complimentary fund that would support those artists that wouldn't typically be eligible for a creative capital or us artists award.

Javier Torres:

So I think it runs the gamut. Again, I don't think anybody really knows what they're doing. As is the case for most of us as adults, we think that we're supposed to have the answers, but most of us are making it up as we go. Some people are just more comfortable trusting their instincts and speaking up than others. Some people like to move really quickly and others are going to be slow and measured in trying to take in as much information as possible and coming up with a more strategic or informed decision. I don't know if I actually got to your question.

Lauren Ruffin:

No, you absolutely did.

Tim Cynova:

Well, and I think that was a great way to end our episode Javier. Thank you so much for being with us today. I've enjoyed riding along with your conversation. It's one of those things where I'm like, wow, this is fascinating. Wait I should be asking some questions.

Lauren Ruffin:

Sorry. I was a Jabberwocky.

Tim Cynova:

No, this is great. Thank you so much for being on the show today.

Javier Torres:

Thank you. Really great to see you both. Stay safe.

Tim Cynova:

Continue the Work. Shouldn't. Suck. LIVE adventure with us on our next episode when we're joined by Deborah Cullinan, Chief Executive Officer of Yerba Buena Center for the Arts. Miss us in the meantime, you can download more Work. Shouldn't. Suck. episodes from your favorite podcasting platform of choice and rewatch Work. Shouldn't. Suck. LIVE episodes over on workshouldntsuck.co. If you've enjoyed the conversation or are just feeling generous today, please consider writing a review in iTunes so that others who might be interested in the topic can join the fun too. Give it a thumbs up or five stars or phone a friend, whatever your podcasting platform of choice offers. If you didn't enjoy this chat, please tell someone about it who you don't like as much. Until next time, thanks for listening.

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Live with Aaron Dworkin! (EP.18)

Last Updated

April 7, 2020

Work. Shouldn't. Suck. LIVE: The Morning(ish) Show with special guest Aaron Dworkin, Social Entrepreneur, Artist, Philanthropist, & Professor of Arts Leadership & Entrepreneurship. [Live show recorded: April 6, 2020.]

Guest: Aaron Dworkin

Co-Hosts: Tim Cynova & Lauren Ruffin

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Guest

AARON DWORKIN Named a 2005 MacArthur Fellow, President Obama’s first appointment to the National Council on the Arts and Governor Snyder’s appointment to the Michigan Council for Arts & Cultural Affairs, Aaron P. Dworkin served as dean of the University of Michigan’s School of Music, Theatre & Dance (SMTD), which is ranked among the top performing arts schools in the nation. He is currently a tenured full professor of arts leadership and entrepreneurship at SMTD as well as serving as a Professor of Entrepreneurial Studies at the Stephen M. Ross School of Business at the University of Michigan. In addition, Aaron is a successful social entrepreneur having founded The Sphinx Organization, the leading arts organization with the mission of transforming lives through the power of diversity in the arts. He is also co-founder of SonoGrub.com, a weekly blog pairing great food and music. As a best-selling writer, Aaron has authored The Entrepreneurial Artist: Lessons from Highly Successful Creatives published by Rowman & Littlefield, a science-fiction novel, Ethos: Rise of Malcolm published by MorganJames, as well as his memoir titled Uncommon Rhythm: A Black, White, Jewish, Jehovah's Witness, Irish Catholic Adoptee's Journey to Leadership released through Aquarius Press, a poetry collection, They Said I Wasn’t Really Black, and a children’s book The 1st Adventure of Chilli Pepperz.

A lifelong musician, Aaron is a prominent spoken-word performing artist represented by Cadenza Artists. He has collaborated with a breadth of artists including Yo-Yo Ma, Damien Sneed, Anna Deveare Smith, Damian Woetzel, Lil Buck and others. His visual digital art project, Fractured History, has been exhibited at multiple galleries and museums to rave reviews. He recorded and produced two CDs, entitled Ebony Rhythm and Bar-Talk, in addition to writing, producing, and directing the independent film Deliberation.

A multi-media performing artist, author, social entrepreneur, artist-citizen, and educator, Aaron continually receives extensive national recognition for his leadership and service to communities. He has been featured in numerous media outlets, and was named one of Newsweek’s “15 People Who Make America Great.” He is the recipient of the Royal Philharmonic Society Honorary Membership, Harvard University’s Vosgerchian Teaching Award, National Governors Association 2005 Distinguished Service to State Government Award, Detroit Symphony Orchestra’s 2007 Lifetime Achievement Award, Detroit News’s 2003 Michiganian of the Year Award, Crain’s 40 Under 40 and Who’s Who Awards, BET’s History Makers in the Making Award, AT&T Excellence in Education Award, and National Black MBA’s Entrepreneur of The Year.

As an artist curator, he has served as a juror for some of the most prestigious international competitions including the Menuhin Competition, London Music Masters Competition, Stulberg International Violin Competition and the Sphinx Competition. A sought-after global thought leader and a passionate advocate for excellence in arts education, entrepreneurship and leadership, as well as inclusion in the performing arts, Aaron is a frequent keynote speaker and lecturer at numerous national and global arts, creativity and technology conferences. He served as commencement speaker at the Curtis Institute of Music, University of Michigan, Longy Conservatory and twice for Bowling Green State University. In May of 2013, the renowned Curtis Institute of Music awarded Honorary Doctorates to Aaron and Sir Simon Rattle, longtime maestro of the Berlin Philharmonic. Aaron also holds bachelor’s and master’s degrees in violin performance from the University of Michigan.

Aaron personifies arts leadership, entrepreneurship and community commitment with an unwavering passion for the arts, diversity and their role in society. He serves regularly as a board or advisory member for numerous influential arts organizations including the National Council on the Arts and Michigan Council for Arts and Cultural Affairs. As the co-chair of the Arts and Cultural Education Task Force for the State of Michigan, Aaron designed the required arts curriculum for Michigan schools.

Aaron has strong interests in politics, innovation, creativity, human pair bonding and issues of economic and social justice. In addition to various genres of music and disciplines of the performing arts, he enjoys travel, movies, and the culinary arts. He is married to Afa Sadykhly Dworkin, a prominent international arts leader who serves as President and Artistic Director of the Sphinx Organization and has two awesome sons, Noah Still and Amani Jaise. Find more at aarondworkin.com.

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Transcript

Tim Cynova:

Hi, I'm Tim Cynova and welcome to Work Shouldn't Suck Live the morning-ish show. On today's episode, Lauren Ruffin and I are joined by Aaron Dworkin. Social entrepreneur, performing artists, philanthropist, professor of arts leadership and entrepreneurship at the University of Michigan.

Tim Cynova:

Aaron is the founder and former president of the Sphinx Organization. A leading arts organization with the mission of transforming lives through the power of diversity in the arts. He was named a 2005 MacArthur Fellow. He was President Obama's first appointment to the National Council on the Arts. He's a published author and his book, The Entrepreneurial Artist: Lessons from Highly Successful Creatives, is now available on Audible. SonoGrub.com, the site he runs with his wife Afa, pairs great food and great music. It makes me hungry every time they publish a new piece. Without further ado, Aaron, welcome to the show.

Aaron Dworkin:

It's great to be here. Thanks so much.

Lauren Ruffin:

Aaron, can you talk to us a little bit about how are you doing? We were talking in the green room about how our lives have been radically changed in a month. How are you doing?

Aaron Dworkin:

I'm doing great. I think probably one of the key things that I would share is just literally every day I wake up and fall asleep with appreciation. There are so many people, not just in our own community and society who are suffering. Either those who are suffering directly from the health impacts of what's going on, to those who have really significant financial impact that they're already experiencing.

Aaron Dworkin:

To be able to continue the work that I do and to be able to be healthy at this point, is just something that fills me with great appreciation. I'd say over more than anything else, I'm doing great and in the midst of that feeling great appreciation.

Lauren Ruffin:

Fantastic. I'm glad to hear that. Over the weekend, sort of the story that's starting to trend is that black and brown communities are being hit much harder. I think they were saying 70% of the deaths in Chicago were African American. It's looking like Detroit, Michigan might be another sort of epicenter. Are you starting to see these things in your community? If so, can you give us some of your thoughts about how we might be able to combat that or talk about it? Sort of wrap our brains around another sort of racial injustice that's happening right in front of our eyes.

Aaron Dworkin:

It's one of these things that I think is so insidious in our society and that's because it's actually complex. Number one, yes, absolutely. We're experiencing it. We're experiencing it in Detroit. We're experiencing in Washtenaw County specifically. Where I live here, over 50% of those who are impacted by the virus are African American even though we're 12% of a population. Obviously in Detroit, all of our communities that are hardest hit are those that are predominantly African American and those communities and neighborhoods that have the least resources.

Aaron Dworkin:

One of the things is that it would be so easy if there was kind of an evil boogeyman out there and they are just causing the virus to affect black people. We could be like, okay, that's to blame and we can just solve it that way, but the problem is, is that all of these things that already existed. All of these injustices, disparities that already existed in our society just contributes.

Aaron Dworkin:

When something happens when our society experiences challenges, the burden is [inaudible 00:03:32] on those who are in underserved communities or who have less resources. We're seeing that reflected through this pandemic and because it's so profound, it is truly, truly tragic.

Aaron Dworkin:

If we look at the disparities of access to healthcare, number one. If we look at simply the way in which we work and those who are in so many frontline employment positions in our communities don't have the opportunity to social distance the way that someone who might be a college professor. Again, I talk about that appreciation.

Aaron Dworkin:

I am extraordinarily lucky that my main job enables me to pretty much relatively easily work from home, but for the vast majority of people, especially people of color, it's not such an easy option. Then sometimes you're faced with, do I just not make money? Do I put myself at risk? If I put myself at risk, do I go home and then risk my family? All of these types of decisions are just harder and the burden is heavier for those who have the least in our society.

Aaron Dworkin:

That is kind of like, okay, so this really is terrible and challenging, so what can we do about it? One, I think first, obviously me and our family, we're trying to identify where is the need greatest. Especially in our local community and how can we just directly help out whether financially or in other ways. A lot of people are trying to find ways to help out in their communities. Make masks or other things for those who may not have, et cetera. We can delve into it our local shelter association is having extraordinarily challenging times. That's been one area where we've tried to at least help a little bit.

Aaron Dworkin:

Then also, I think it's looking and saying as we move forward from this and before we're too far removed, where the acuteness of the impact of what's happening has faded, which I think for human beings we tend to have it fade pretty quick. Before that fades, can we look and develop policies that will be protective for the longterm so that the next challenge that we face, because there will be one, can it be not as deeply borne by those who have less?

Tim Cynova:

Several years ago, when you were still at the Sphinx Organization, we were hosting a panel during the Sphinx Con and you talked about how the Sphinx Organization used ROWE or Results Only Work Environment and what that looked like at Sphinx. It's been several years since then. You've been the dean at the University of Michigan. You're on faculty now. You're working from the Sphinx Organization to massive institution. There's been several years.

Tim Cynova:

Can you unpack, sort of what ROWE is to begin with and then how maybe your thinking has changed or how it plays out in these different size and different organizations? At the same time that right now, University of Michigan, I work at the new school, Laura works at NYU. Massive institutions are quickly trying to figure out how you put this thing online? That was never meant to be done in 24 hours. Flipped over. So I'm really fascinated by how this all sort of stitches together for you?

Aaron Dworkin:

Well, it's really interesting because you're exactly right. All of these institutions and organizations have had to adjust in a 24 hour period all of a sudden shift. One of the things that I always teach my students in entrepreneurship and arts leadership, is I said, "Instead of letting life happen to you, happen to life. Be intentional. Architect the trajectory of your life instead of letting it just happen and cobbling together things. For example, cobbling together a portfolio life rather than intentionally building it like you might build a financial portfolio."

Aaron Dworkin:

Years ago, Sphinx very intentionally built a work setting that I think has made the organization incredibly resilient in times of change such as this. Years ago we instituted ROWE, which is a Results Only Work Environment. This was originally founded at Best Buy and then spun off as a separate company Culture [RS 00:07:35].

Aaron Dworkin:

The main gist of it we could spend shows on it, is that the primary priority of an organization is results, results only. All of a sudden, once you begin to focus on what are the goals for a particular position? All of these other things that in historically we've tended to notice or pay attention to, don't matter.

Aaron Dworkin:

For example, are you in the office? If all of [inaudible 00:08:03] versus your results, for example, at Sphinx. If you can get your work done on a beach in Tahiti, what does Sphinx care if the impact, for example, on young people and providing them access and instruction on a classical instrument is happening in the most effective and efficient and impactful way, how that work gets done doesn't matter.

Aaron Dworkin:

Part of the components of this is that there are no standard working hours, which means no one's required to be in the office at any particular time. Any day you might wander into Sphinxes offices and there might be one person or there might be 10 people and you just wouldn't know. Some people would be in the office maybe once every couple of weeks and other people might be in six days a week just because of the nature of their goals, but most importantly how they would want to work.

Aaron Dworkin:

Some people, because of maybe their family circumstances want to be able to work at home. Some people want to be able to work from four in the morning until eight. Then take a couple hour break and then work from two until five, or some people don't want to get up in the morning and don't want to start work until 10 or 11:00. Then work until 3:00 in the morning. Whatever those circumstances are, a flexible work environment like that ends up maximizing productivity.

Aaron Dworkin:

One of the reason years ago Sphinx pulled this up and adopted it is because if you actually look at the data, you find that your teams are more productive, are happier, have a longer retention period, less turnover, et cetera and that is why that has now born out for Sphinx over the years.

Aaron Dworkin:

In terms of the current crisis that we're sitting in, there are so many organizations that I know that had to make a drastic change and of course had to do it all of a sudden. Weren't prepared and there was chaos, and a lot of stress, and a lot of mental health impact for teams as part of these organizations because of the stress of that immediate transition.

Aaron Dworkin:

For Sphinx, not much has actually changed internally. Externally obviously for example, Sphinxes summer programs Sphinx is dealing with how to transition those. However, because of the way that Sphinx works, all of its team members are fully engaged, fully operational. Right from the get go, any, even the most quote unquote juniors Sphinx is a very flat organization, but even the most junior if you will, team member who comes on is immediately issued with a smartphone, a tablet if they want one, and a laptop. So pretty much any Sphinx team member can do anything from anywhere.

Aaron Dworkin:

In terms of looking at those summer programs now, obviously some of which may need to go remote, they're working on those decisions at this point. Then how they do that, and how they think about teaching, and how we teach a student, and can that be done remotely? How to adopt or utilize the technology? Sphinx already has a lot of those skill sets. So that transition is happening relatively smoothly and it's happening thoughtfully and in a measured way rather than being very reactive.

Aaron Dworkin:

That's kind of how Sphinx has been able to adopt and again, I think the whole team at Sphinx is very appreciative that they're in that circumstance where they can be addressing it in that way.

Aaron Dworkin:

With the University of Michigan, it was interesting because a little over five years ago when I came in as dean, I was looking at a lot of these ways that a small entrepreneurial organization was working and saying, "Okay, this works at a $5 million annual budget organization. Now I'm moving into the School of Music Theater and Dance, which is pretty much a $60 million operation. Going from 40 to 50 full and part time employees to 180 faculty, 100 staff. It's 1100 students."

Aaron Dworkin:

A much different scale, but part of the reason that I was brought in was to bring those entrepreneurial ideas, but to see how thoughtfully they could be applied in a larger setting like that. Especially that setting in a larger multibillion dollar research university. Obviously, we couldn't just come in and snap my fingers and have the School of Music Theater and Dance operator as a ROWE.

Aaron Dworkin:

However, so many faculty in many ways already do operate in these ways. Really, most faculty members are themselves in a miniature entrepreneurial entity. When you think about their teaching, their professional activities, their service, and how that gets done. Now they have to interact with the other members of their department and all of that and the school as a whole.

Aaron Dworkin:

Anyway, we began to look at these things and I think what is interesting to me is that some of those ideas that we began to adopt, we began to look at, and we have in a few years, but some of that pushback that occurred wouldn't of course occur now. Some of those ideas that seemed far more radical, which was how about we take some of our staff and have them work more remotely? Or look at some of things and now of course they're like, "Maybe we'll keep that."

Aaron Dworkin:

It's interesting to see how the world can change in a month, but I do think that we helped move the institution, which is more of a ship than a little jet boat. I do think that we were able to change its direction and steer it so that now it's better equipped. For example, the whole department that didn't exist before. Then a lab which relates to entrepreneurship, career development, career empowerment, this idea, how are we preparing all of our students to be successful actually out in the world?

Aaron Dworkin:

So separate from the development of their discipline or their artistic craft. What about all those other skill sets that the modern world requires of them to apply that artistic talent and to engage in it in a meaningful way. A lot of those kind of guts of that have now been developed at the institution and are at play because potentially this department, which is the department in which I teach, was more prepared to operate in this environment.

Aaron Dworkin:

The webinars, the online access, some of the remote teaching, and sessions, and seminars already were in practice in such a way that the department and the lab have been able to do a lot of work that was already relatively prepared in terms of the capacity to do it.

Lauren Ruffin:

One, I have so many thoughts, my brain exploded a little bit. I'm curious about the transition from Sphinx to University of Michigan as a founder because so many founders personal identities are wrapped up in the founding.

Lauren Ruffin:

I'd love for you to talk a little bit about how long that transition took and how you approached it? Then ultimately it was really interesting even though you're no longer with Sphinx to hear you talk about how Sphinx is handling the transition to remote and sort of ROWE? How did that feel to you and how did you approach that transition?

Aaron Dworkin:

Well one of the things that I was very, very lucky that my successor, that our board went through a very deep dive and process to go through who had been the longtime executive director, former director of development, longtime artistic director of the organization [OFA 00:15:10] was my successor.

Aaron Dworkin:

As a founder it was very easy. Some founders I think feel great, worry, or concern that their organization won't continue to thrive. They worry about their successors ability. That simply was just not a factor for me. I knew that not only would the organization thrive, but that I thought it would potentially grow in ways that it might not have been able to under me.

Aaron Dworkin:

Founders we continue to lead the organization I was almost 20 years. Sometimes a shift, a change is something that can actually be good for an organization and give some new perspectives and new avenues that it can go through.

Aaron Dworkin:

Tim, you were actually talking about with Sphinx Con. That's one of the key things. When I stepped down from the organization, Sphinx Con as it was called, we were struggling to maybe bring in about 150 maybe shy of 200 people. Within just a couple of short years OFA had transitioned that to Sphinx Connect. Had broadened it and now has almost 1,000 people and has transformed as a conference. Would that have been able to occur under my continued leadership? Not so sure. I think I had some different ideas at the time.

Aaron Dworkin:

I had the luxury of not worrying as a founder about your life's work being in good hands. I think that's one key thing. Also, I was deeply dedicated and committed to this new role. I hadn't been looking to leave Sphinx, but when your alma mater calls and when you feel like you can make a difference and that there are either challenges or opportunities at an institution that you deeply love that you can have an impact on. That became my singular focus, which was how can I bring that?

Aaron Dworkin:

I think both the combination of a commitment to that new role, [inaudible 00:16:59] me a level of confidence about my beloved organization that I was transitioning from kind of let that actually happen very smoothly. Also, oddly enough, even though people think that a lot of founders have this, I didn't have kind of control issues. Whether it's the ... It's interesting. I have control issues over myself. I don't want other people to control me, but I don't have control issues over the institutions that I take part in. That includes even institutions or projects that I found or that I start.

Aaron Dworkin:

Ultimately whether you started something or you come in as a temporary steward, which is how I viewed my role at Michigan, which is also why I think that it was easy for me to step down and not invade or try and double question my successor as dean at Michigan. Is because we are all temporary stewards of the organizations that we leave.

Aaron Dworkin:

To think somehow that you're greater, that you have some more divine role that makes you more important than either the person who preceded you or the person who succeeds you, is just number one inaccurate because history will prove that wrong. Also I think it's just unhealthy. It makes us consumed with things that A, we probably don't have the power to change because we no longer sit in the seat and when you don't sit in the seat you don't have the power. Also, it can cause us, I think inadvertently sometimes, people to bring about a diminishing of an institution.

Aaron Dworkin:

Say you step out and down from a role and OFA makes a decision or the current dean of SMTD makes a decision that I don't like. If I somehow then go in and try and convince them otherwise or even worse, try and somehow convince others in the institution that their decisions are incorrect. It's irrelevant whether I'm right or not, I'm diminishing the institution from their current leader.

Aaron Dworkin:

I think A, it's a role that you just shouldn't have. I think it's kind of characteristic of ego that shows that what's more important to you is your own perspective of something rather than the institution that you actually say that you love. I can guarantee you there have been decisions OFA's made that Sphinx's or decisions that my successor at SMTD have made that I disagree with, but I do everything in my power to support and advocate. [Crosstalk 00:19:26].

Aaron Dworkin:

What I've found is that for the most part, almost without exception, their decisions were right. Even though in the moment I may have thought that they were wrong. In retrospect, I'm really glad I did everything I could to support them because it just helps to further both institutions.

Tim Cynova:

One decision someone made at Sphinx, I believe it was your last year when you're there. Was to extend an invitation to me to join at the Sphinx Medals of Excellence, which produced one of the most awesome and awkward experiences of my life. When you said, "It's Justice Ginsburg's birthday, let's all sing to her," and we spin around from where we were and I'm like four feet away from Justice Ginsburg here. I want to thank you for that.

Tim Cynova:

After a certainly awkwardness, it was an amazing experience. Both to be there and to honor the recipients of the Medals of Excellence, but I always assume I got on the invitation list because they're inviting like another Tim Cynova and I just showed up and no one said, "We didn't mean you," but that was a moment that, when my parents were still alive, after I quit playing trombone. I don't think they could tell you what I did in life, but showing them this, they're like, "He must be doing something well." So I want to thank you and your former Sphinx colleagues for providing me with that. A really amazing memory.

Aaron Dworkin:

Oh no, no, absolutely. Your role and your leadership in our community and our field has been so critical. Also vehicles such as the show are just tremendous, especially at these times where it gives people not just an opportunity to be informed about issues, but also to connect because really important.

Aaron Dworkin:

One thing I might just quickly add about that it's was an amazing experience and the medals which are celebrated. Justice Sotomayor is kind of presides and hosts that extraordinary event. One of the things that I always tell my students is they think about things. They think that things like that are somehow a different path. This is one of the reasons I bring in all these arts leaders to talk in an intimate, small format with my students. That those paths to leadership, those experiences that that's not just what someone else might be able to do, but that you can do it yourself.

Aaron Dworkin:

The way that that happened to come about was through literally, I just happened to be at a luncheon where I was seated next to Justice Sotomayor, but instead of having that be just this brief moment and an awe of someone who's one of these amazing leaders in our society and in history really. To then say, okay, to be prepared, to articulate, and advocate for at the time, obviously Sphinx and the work that Sphinx was doing and this issue, this mission. This movement that is so important in our field.

Aaron Dworkin:

To then be able to articulate it and from just that luncheon that then grew this idea and her engagement with it. Just say that any leaders, you can absolutely find yourself either at conferences or at concerts where you can get backstage and meet that particular artist, or at a conference meet that particular head of a foundation, or event and potentially even a Supreme Court Justice, but be prepared with those skillsets of how to articulate what your work is? What you believe in, what your mission is in life? And be able to articulate it to them in a way where they then have the opportunity to make a decision about whether to engage with you.

Aaron Dworkin:

That those are skillsets of leadership that you can develop, you can hone, and then bring into practice because none of us will ever do this work that we do on our own. For example, it's so clear. Five years now after having stepped down from my role and the organization, the mission, the movement, doing more than it's ever done. It wasn't me doing it. It is the collection of all of the artists, the teachers, the audiences, the musicians, the administrators, everyone combined doing this work. Your ability to bring others into the fold of a particular mission or a movement is what actually makes our work really powerful. Never the work of an individual.

Tim Cynova:

As we start to, and Lauren you get the last question, but I want to slide this one in here first. Aaron, your book, The Entrepreneurial Artist: Lessons From Highly Successful Creatives was just released in Audible format. So cool. If you haven't read it yet, it's now available in print and Audible. For those who haven't read it, what are some quick lessons maybe you included in there? Then we can pivot to Ruffin.

Aaron Dworkin:

What I wanted to do is actually almost exactly off of what I was just sharing, which is that we have these incredible entrepreneurial artist leaders in our community. what I wanted to do was to help take their stories and distill them into best practices.

Aaron Dworkin:

I actually went and interviewed all of these leading artists across a wide swath of disciplines. For example, for dance, Bill T. Jones, for theater Jeff Daniels, for musical theater, Lin Manuel Miranda. Marin Alsop for conducting, Midori for violin, et cetera. It runs across a broad swath. Winton Marseilles for jazz.

Aaron Dworkin:

I interviewed them and then share their stories from those interviews. Each of them has their own chapter and then through their stories I then actually outlined the key takeaways. The key artistic, creative entrepreneurial leadership takeaways and best practices. Then actually outline those at the end of each chapter. It both is a great kind of guide and tool for actual arts entrepreneurship, arts leadership, and arts leadership courses, but also just to settle in during quarantine and wrap yourself up in these extraordinary stories of these amazing people.

Lauren Ruffin:

I feel like I need to grab that and then incorporate it into my NYU course on entrepreneurship. I think all of my students should have read that this past semester.

Lauren Ruffin:

As we close, is there anything that's been top of mind for you that we haven't spoke about that you'd like to share with our audience?

Aaron Dworkin:

I think that it's although things are so difficult right now and some people are finding themselves in extraordinary challenging circumstances. That yes, we have to and the urgent priority is to address the now, but to also be thinking about the future. To be thinking about what are the longterm policies that we can potentially enact that will better help protect those in our society and in our communities who have access to the least?

Aaron Dworkin:

Also, I think in a pragmatic way to look at many of the changes that we've made out of a sense of urgency or emergency and say now that we were forced into these, which of these new practices and policies should we hold onto because they actually have value? Maybe we didn't try this particular remote learning or remote work because it just seemed wrong or because culturally our organization was resistant to it, but now that we've done it, we found that it saves us money, saves us time, increases our employee or team member productivity, and or their kind of happiness with work so that work doesn't suck. Be thinking about even in these times of challenge, how we can take advantage of some of these things that have occurred to actually create a better future.

Tim Cynova:

Aaron it's been wonderful spending the morning with you. Thank you so much for being on the show.

Aaron Dworkin:

Thanks so much. It was wonderful to be here with you. Take care.

Tim Cynova:

Continue the Work Shouldn't Suck Live adventure with us on our next episode. When we're joined by Javier Torres, director, thriving cultures at this Surdna Foundation. Miss us in the meantime, you can download more Work Shouldn't Suck episodes from your favorite podcasting platform of choice and re watch Work Shouldn't Suck Live episodes over on workshouldntsuck.co.

Tim Cynova:

If you've enjoyed the conversation or just feeling generous today, please consider writing a review on iTunes so that others who might be interested in the topic and join the fun too. Give it a thumbs up, or five stars, or phone a friend, whatever your podcasting platform of choice offers. If you didn't enjoy this chat, please tell someone about it who you don't like as much. Until next time, thanks for listening.

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Live with Nina Simon! (EP.17)

Last Updated

April 2, 2020

Work. Shouldn't. Suck. LIVE: The Morning(ish) Show with special guest Nina Simon, Spacemaker & CEO of OF/BY/FOR ALL. [Live show recorded: April 2, 2020.]

Guest: Nina Simon

Co-Hosts: Tim Cynova & Lauren Ruffin

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Guest

NINA SIMON spend her days working on OF/BY/FOR ALL, a nonprofit she founded to make civic and cultural organizations of, by, and for everyone.

If you like to read, check out her best-selling books "The Participatory Museum" and "The Art of Relevance." Both are available for free online or you can buy them for your very own. You can also read hundreds of posts on the Museum 2.0 blog, which she authored from 2006-2019, and her recent essays on Medium.

If you are more of an audio-visual person, the two TEDx talks she gave on opening up museums and deepening relevance are linked from her website, NinaKSimon.com. as well as a short video from when she was named Santa Cruz County Woman of the Year.

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Transcript

Tim Cynova:

Hi, I'm Tim Cynova, and welcome to Work Shouldn't Suck live, the morning-ish show. On today's episode, Lauren Ruffin and I are joined by Nina Simon. Nina is Spacemaker and CEO at OF/BY/FOR ALL, a nonprofit she founded to make civic and cultural organizations of, by, and for everyone. She has authored two bestselling books, The Participatory Museum and The Art of the Relevance as well as hundreds of posts on the museum 2.0 blog and on medium. She also delivered two popular TEDx talks on opening up museums and deepening relevance. According to her Twitter bio, tree houses are also in her repertoire. Without further ado, Nina, welcome to the show.

Nina Simon:

Thank you. It's great to be here.

Lauren Ruffin:

Fantastic. We definitely need to talk about tree houses at some point. I'm about to embark on my own journey in that realm, but first, how are you? How's your community doing?

Nina Simon:

I'm doing okay. I'm here in Santa Cruz, California. I actually live in community. I live in a community of 20 folks and seven little cabins off the grid in the mountains. Yes, we are stereotypical California hippies. My family is safe. My husband works in homelessness and housing, so both of us have felt called to step up both as parents to our first grader who's now homeschooling and also to our organizations. I feel fortunate to be in this space and also to be working with a team in my work who are safe and healthy and where we've been able to ensure that everybody has their jobs, has their salaries, has additional benefits at this time.

Lauren Ruffin:

More broadly, are there recurring issues and themes that are happening in conversations with your by, for members, colleagues right now?

Nina Simon:

Absolutely. Our organization works with cultural and civic organizations around the world. Just this Wednesday, we did a call with about 75 of our members in 12 different countries. That's librarians. It's museum folks. It's theater folks. It's parks folks, and so around the world, we're hearing and around these sectors we're hearing organizations are closed. People obviously are struggling. A lot of layoffs are happening, a lot of stress and suffering, but also, a lot of creativity and resilience.

Nina Simon:

I love one person who had actually just been laid off said to me, "I'm feeling creative. I'm feeling hungry, and I'm curious about what comes next." I've just been really stunned by the optimism and hope and possibility in this time.

Lauren Ruffin:

Great. How do you typically introduce of, by, for all and the work that you'll do?

Nina Simon:

We really exist to equip organizations to live up to their greatest visions of equitable public value. I feel like a lot of organizations before this crisis, but even more so now, have said, "We want our theater to be a place that is really in communication and in community with everybody around us. We want our library to be a place that's not just a resource for some, but a resource for all." Our name really comes from the recognition that a lot of organizations have been pretty strong at working on new services, programs, marketing to be for communities, but have not necessarily gotten as strong at being representative of those diverse communities and being co-creative by them.

Nina Simon:

So really, what we do is create and share tools around building that sense of representation, that sense of co-creation, that sense of real ownership of these spaces so that they become of highest civic and creative value to their whole communities. Concretely, what we do actually is we run a digital program called The Change Network where organizations join for a minimum of a year to go through a change process moving towards closer relationship with their communities, so really learning about the communities around them, selecting communities to focus on, going out and listening and learning from folks in those communities, and then building authentic relationships to spur policy and programmatic change to make the organization more open, more relevant, more valued.

Tim Cynova:

We have early question already for you that I think probably slides right in here. I'm curious about which type, size, discipline of organizations were early adopters of your work and which are coming around in this moment?

Nina Simon:

The irony is that when we first started up by for all, I had previously been the director of a museum that I was honored to take over really right at a point of crisis when it was just a week away from closing financially. We radically reinvented it with our community. When we started up by for all, there was a conversation about should we actually be working primarily with organizations that are in crisis. Is that a catalytic moment for reinvention, and particularly if you have a crisis of relevance, is it a catalytic moment to get curious about and get to know new communities?

Nina Simon:

We decided at the time, this is two years ago, it's too hard for us to find organizations that are in crisis. What's the Google ad for like, "Are you thinking of being an organization that is about to or might have just closed?" So we didn't go that path. It's funny that now, I've been really curious about who are the organizations that are newly open to reinvention. I think there actually are some surprises of who that might be. Indirect answer to Andrew's question, from the beginning, we saw organizations that were not typical by sector, size, or type or geography.

Nina Simon:

We really saw it attitudinal in terms of who felt eager to either lead change or who felt like they were already on a journey towards equity, but wanted to double down on it. De silo it, take it across their whole institution. Now, we're getting curious about, "Are we going to see more organizations that are in that reinvention place?" Even potentially, I think it's possible that some of the most historically conservative organizations, ones that we would have seen as very far from ready or eager to do the kind of work that we do, how many of them might quickly start to change their urgency and appetite for change.

Nina Simon:

I think there's a hugely optimistic part of me about that and also a hugely cynical part of me about it. So I'm really unsure what's going to happen.

Tim Cynova:

What's your thing about leadership and crisis, the roles of leaders wherever they find themselves in organizations? What's occupying your thoughts nowadays?

Nina Simon:

Our work is so oriented towards communities, so one of the things that I've been hearing from leaders is a real curiosity and uncertainty about which communities are most important to engage with at this time. Actually, my colleague Raquel Thompson, our head of program, she offered this framework that has been really useful for me in saying there are three different kinds of communities we think about. There are the existing communities who we were engaging before the crisis. There are newly vulnerable communities because of the crisis.

Nina Simon:

Then there also are the communities that we had been moving towards before the crisis, new communities of interest, maybe communities who had been disenfranchised or marginalized in our space previously who we had started making efforts towards. One thing I'm hearing from a lot of leaders is a lot of pressure to focus almost exclusively on their existing audiences. Make sure that people know they still exist, pump out digital content. I also hear from organizational leaders who are very community minded a real desire to do more around vulnerable communities but maybe not have the relationships yet, not sure what they can do.

Nina Simon:

The group I've been most curious about is this third group because I feel like the efforts we started to make before the crisis, whether they were around equity or around connecting with a particular community, I wonder if those are going to get lost. I was just talking to a colleague in Europe who was saying there, "It's basically the law that people on staff who are most recently hired are going to be the first ones to be laid off," and so if you had just started an equity or a community engagement initiative, those are the people who you're losing even as you need to do this work more.

Nina Simon:

I think that as leaders, I guess, I think about on the community side, how can you get clear with your board about how much resource allocation you're putting to these three different communities? What choices are you making based on it? Of course, I also feel, and I feel deeply as a leader myself, you've got to take care of your team and your own crew, both in terms of ensuring people to feel safe and secure, but also that that safety and security in salary and benefits and things like that allows them permission to be part of that creative thinking about what you might do for others.

Nina Simon:

Then the last thing I'd say about leadership, and I don't think we're quite there yet, but is as we start to imagine, how do we want to reopen? I think that there's an incredible leadership challenge and opportunity for leaders to say to themselves, "Gosh, we laid off 85% of our people. Are we going to bring those exact roles back online when we can, or are we going to recharge ourselves in a new direction? Are we going to hire people with the same competencies, or are we trying to exactly bring back those individuals, or are we trying to build in the new direction?"

Nina Simon:

Frankly, I think it's very painful right now to even imagine saying that we're going to permanently let go of those people we've just hopefully temporarily let go. On the other hand, I think there is a leadership challenge and question about where we want our organizations to go with our communities in the future and who are the people who can help us go there.

Tim Cynova:

I want to ask you about OF/BY/FOR ALL. You've set it up as a 100% remote organization. This is in the DNA of the structure, and so you've already set up systems and structures to connect as a distributed team. We often talk about how the tools are the easy thing. It was a relatively easy thing, Zoom and Slack and Google docs, but the really challenging thing is what I think a lot of people are finding out now. How do you connect as team members? How do you supervise teams when you can't see people?

Tim Cynova:

The classic, "If I can't see someone, how do I know they're working?" What have you found useful in your own work to connect as team members, as community when you're distributed around the country, around the world?

Nina Simon:

We're a staff of six in four different States, in three different time zones. I guess there are two things I'd say. One is that we chose this, which is very different than if it was foisted upon you. I used to run a museum with an open office, and there was nothing I love more than walking in, there being people everywhere, there being just hub of activity. I remember being super nervous when I moved to starting OF/BY/FOR ALL of like, "Oh, am I going to miss this?" I had time to prepare myself and to think about what that might look like.

Nina Simon:

So I just want to honor that there are so many people switching to this who did not choose it, and that usually as y'all probably do as well, when you're hiring somebody for an all remote organization, one of the questions you usually ask is, "How do you feel about working remote? Do you really want to do this?" It's considered a mode of work. It's not just going home to work, so honor that this is different when you choose it. One of the things that's different in that way, I've been interested hearing some of your other guests talk about how they're doing things like virtual happy hours with staffs during this time trying to stay connected, water-cooler time.

Nina Simon:

We've actually gone the opposite direction because for us as all remote team, one of the things we've always valued so much individually is maximal flexibility and having a trust-based. One of the things that makes remote work for us is having a very trust-based approach to an expectation about it's not at all based on when are you working, but it's based on what's on your docket. How are we accountable to each other? How do we know we're getting things done? How quickly are we responsive to each other? We've never had a sense of we're all in the office together at the same time.

Nina Simon:

Actually when this crisis started, as we were each talking about what we needed, one of the things we realized is we all needed actually a lot more flexibility and permission about when we work so that people could take care of kids, take care of community, do service, other kinds of things. So the irony as I've been hearing about water cooler talks and things like that is we're actually trying to do fewer all group meetings, still being very in touch with each other, but having a lot more permission around flexibility.

Nina Simon:

I guess to me, as you said, the tools are one thing, but to me, the fundamental thing is, "Can you shift to a more permissive, flexible approach? What does over communication and accountability look like when it's not about, "I see that you're working on that thing?" I think that there is a fundamentally different way to work if you want to do it with power. Now, if you want to say, "Hey, this is a patch for now," just like, "Look, I'm homeschooling my kid. I mean, my kid is technically going to first grade," but everybody knows there's a lot of people tweeting about like, "This is not homeschooling. This is emergency remote schooling."

Nina Simon:

I think that you also have to honor, "Are we switching to remote, or are we just trying to make this work and find some accommodations for ourselves at this time?"

Tim Cynova:

We have a busy chat today. I've been trying to listen. I've been trying to read. We have a theme with questions around community. That seems like a good way to go here, so I want to highlight a couple of things. Apologies if I missed someone or it's out of queue. How do we know if we're really connecting to our communities during this time when they aren't able to come in? Any suggestions for visitor surveys, studies, feedback during this time? There's another one. How does a OF/BY/FOR ALL define community?

Tim Cynova:

There's a conversation that continues to continue on what Keith said. How can we connect with our communities existing or new when the digital world is not always the solution to access and other reasons? Thanks all for the vibrant chat and [crosstalk 00:14:22].

Nina Simon:

The community is awesome. I love it. Let me start with the definition and then we'll shift. We define community as a group of people with something shared, and that could be something demographic. It could be something that is an affinity-based community. It could be something that is a deeply felt belief that shared. I think that one of the actually challenging but also beautiful things about a time when people aren't coming in the building is especially if you run a space, it's very easy to almost exclusively attend to the people who are walking in the door and to have a belief that they are the community.

Nina Simon:

Well, they are some communities. There are probably other communities who are never walking in your door. I think, actually now's a really great time if you have the mental capacity and bandwidth to do some community mapping of who really is in our community. Do we define that as our city, our county, our neighborhood, our world? Which of these sub-communities matter most to us? Is it that we really are focused on teens in our community? Are we really focused on single moms who are starting an entrepreneurial activity?

Nina Simon:

Are we interested in creative immigrants with a cultural and creative practice? I think that getting clear and specific about which communities matter to your organization and to the work that you do, a, is always a good thing to do, and then, b, it can allow you to get focus on who you want to spend time with and what that showing up might look like at this point. You're not going to invite them into your space. They're probably not going to invite them into theirs, but there are a lot of things you can still do to connect with community at this time.

Nina Simon:

First of all, I always say the most important step is to just call people,. Just as you all in the beginning asked how I'm doing, we've been suggesting to our partners like, "Hey, are you reaching out to that refugee welcome center that you've been working with?" Just to see how they're doing. Not to necessarily say, "Here's a long list of virtual resources we have for you," but just to say, "Hey, how's it going? How are things going for you," and to connect. I think that continuing to build relationships with humans is something we can all do right now.

Nina Simon:

Then also, getting clarity, sometimes when the doors are closed is the easiest time to get clarity on, "Wait, who does come here and participate, and who doesn't?" When we reopen these doors, who do we hope will be part of that, and how might we start to build relationships so that that could be possible? If you imagine being in a situation right now... I was talking to a guy yesterday who's in the midst of building an organization in Poland. It has never opened. It doesn't exist, and so he's still at that point of asking, "Who is this going to be for? Who am I building it with, and who will feel themselves reflected in this space?"

Nina Simon:

I mean, I think that if any of us took this moment to say, "If we were going to not just reopen but reinvent, who does this organization exist to serve, and who should we be in relationship with now to figure out how we might do that together?" To this question that came up about how can we connect when the digital world is not always a solution, absolutely. I've been talking to a lot of librarians who have been working for a long time with home bound folks around delivery and things like that. I think there are some beautiful things happening that are in real space.

Nina Simon:

I've seen institutions that are partnering with artists who they were already planning to commission, keeping that commission, but having it be something that is external to their buildings, so people who are on walks see it as opposed to something internal. There's a museum we work with in the Netherlands that is commissioning artists to create and to work with people on these massively participatory comfort art projects, where people are making things and sharing them. I think even these scavenger hunting things that are happening where people are putting objects in their windows and things like that, I think that there are many different forms of what touch looks.

Nina Simon:

Even the question of if you're going for long walks right now, where are you walking, and is this an opportunity for you to walk literally into a neighborhood or a space in a safe way that may introduce you to new ways of expression, new forms of culture? How do you start to break out of some of those previous patterns and use this as a opening and an opportunity to do that?

Lauren Ruffin:

Awesome. Tim, do you want to take any more questions from the chatter?

Tim Cynova:

There are a number of comments. It's all great. Sorry everyone, I've been trying to listen to Nina and read. That's why I'm having a co-host.

Lauren Ruffin:

I spent a lot of time in virtual space, and I'm a VR aficionado, and touching on two points you made, one about staff capabilities moving forward because I think that's a real one in particular because I've been a doomsday prophet around climate change. In the United States, everything's concentrated on the coast, and so I've been spending a lot of time thinking about how do we redefine spaces? How do you [inaudible 00:19:14] digital artists into the art sector at this time in particular since it looks like this is going to be the new normal for quite a while? Even if we do come out, poke our heads out, again, I think we should probably get accustomed to a while of us going back indoors.

Lauren Ruffin:

It's a long winded way of saying, "For those organizations that are considering a more permanent digital existence, are you seeing any organizations that are really thinking long term about having to live online and having to do deep work online?

Nina Simon:

Certainly do deep work online. I think that maybe since I'm such an in-person person or rather somebody who used to run a physical space, a museum and a plaza that was built to be a gathering place, I think one thing I've been thinking about related to what you're saying is, "How are we designing to meet the moment of where people are at at any given time?" So both emotionally in terms of if we're feeling fear, where is comfort, but also if we are alone, how does engagement look different than, for example, when they relax it to a point where we can be in small groups?

Nina Simon:

I think about I'm Jewish. In Judaism, you can go to a temple with maybe dozens, hundreds, thousands of people. You can have a chavurah group, which is a small group of people getting together to share community and share Judaism. You can also pray alone and work with books or digital resources to do that. I guess that I think about, "Oh, probably if I were running a temple right now, I'd be going hard on digital, but I'd also be going hard on the chavurah there, so I assume that before people will want to come sit in the temple with everybody, as soon as social distancing lessens a little bit and people can get together in small groups, they're going to want to do that."

Nina Simon:

So what is the way that we support? I think about all the evidence in the arts around over the last decades increased creative expression outside of institutions, digital and otherwise. So how do we think about, "Yes, I'm curious how the orchestras will come back, but I'm also curious how many garage bands are going to be open? How many knitting groups, who right now are making mat, are going to be sharing material and then they're going to be getting together?" I think that this question of which spaces do we occupy with how many people at what time is going to be really interesting.

Lauren Ruffin:

Yeah, and which spaces become legitimate spaces now that haven't been in the past? What garage bands came [inaudible 00:21:41] legitimacy? I mean, I think that's really an interesting thought. Speaking of small groups, we were in our green room earlier. We were talking about shared leadership and peacetime wartime leaders. One of them get us back into that conversation, so I thought it was pretty juicy.

Nina Simon:

Well, so there are two things with leadership I really been thinking about right now. One is I became a museum director when I was a 29-year-old exhibit designer because it was a museum that was about to close, and I think the board was like... They were at a point where they were willing to take a risk. We always used to say, "What's the worst that could happen? We can close. It almost happened." There is that part of me that's like, "Wow, how many new EDs are going to come out of this who are going to be handed keys to crippled or closed organizations with a lot of leeway in what they might do?"

Nina Simon:

I'm super curious about that, but then also to what you were saying, one of the things I think is weird during this time and maybe not, I'm very curious about your perspective on it, is to mention my title is Spacemaker and CEO. I use the word Spacemaker really to remind myself that when I'm doing my job best, I'm making space for others to do their great work. It's not about the creative output I can do, but I do notice, and we sharing power is a big value in our organization. I noticed that at times of crisis, people actually who used to really want to share power maybe just want somebody to tell them, "Hey, here's what's going on, or here's what's happening next."

Nina Simon:

So I'm so curious since you're in a team of four co-leaders, whether you've also felt that impulse in this crisis of just like, "Could somebody just take charge," or if it's felt like that is not something you want to do?

Lauren Ruffin:

No.

Nina Simon:

No, [crosstalk 00:23:24].

Tim Cynova:

We've talked about this. I can't imagine... Well, I can actually imagine because I've run organizations as the single executive director. The burden that is often placed on a leader, the isolation that often exists in the best of times, and now everyone's looking to you in this uncertain environment with the world, with humanity, with the organization and the incredible and benefit to share this with three other people who fully get what's happening, it can be there for each other and share this burden, is invaluable.

Tim Cynova:

We have different conversations but the fact that we come together as a group of four people has been incredibly comforting and a great resource that... Again, I'm glad we did this before we got to this point because we had some time to figure it out, and it was not at all what we intended we're going to use this model for, but it's been hugely beneficial.

Lauren Ruffin:

I also think that we're fortunate that at least two of us are probably better wartime CEOs anyway. [inaudible 00:24:17] and I are definitely just decisive. Tim, I would probably put you as sort of you have a foot in either camp, but I think that helps that we can flip the personality and the makeup of our leadership team internally when we need to. I think that really, really helps.

Nina Simon:

That makes sense because there are very few who are great both peace time and wartime. I've been slowly working on a new book in process about inclusive leadership. I realized when this crisis started, wow, a lot of what I was writing about feels very challenged right now, and it just made me get more curious with my own team and myself about, "Okay, what does it mean to hold equity and inclusion really at all levels including in a leadership level during a crisis, and how do we make sure that whatever core values are, they're fully expressed in what we're doing?"

Lauren Ruffin:

Well, unfortunately, we are approaching the sadness of the 30 minute mark. Nina, before we close out, do you have anything that's top of mind or anything you'd like to leave our listeners with?

Nina Simon:

We're all experiencing this differently, and there's going to be a lot of suffering. I think that if you are in a place, whether for a day or a moment, where you can find hope, where you can find joy, where you can find a little bit of space to be creative and to dream about where you want to go and what you see being possible on the other side of this, I've just found that to be a very generative healing and energizing process. So I just really offer to encourage people to journal from the future. People are talking about documenting what's going on now.

Nina Simon:

Yes, that's important, but I've been writing stories really inspired by the emergent strategy. Adrian Marie Brown [inaudible 00:26:01] about science fiction. How can you write stories about the futures you want to build out of this, because a lot of people are talking about how the normal wasn't working? We don't want to go back to that. If we want to envision that we're going to go to something different, I think we have to start dreaming about what that is, and I've found when I have the time that doing that dreaming is a gift.

Tim Cynova:

Perfect. Nina, thank you so much for being on the show today.

Nina Simon:

Thank you. It's been my total pleasure.

Tim Cynova:

Continue the Work Shouldn't Suck live adventure with us on our next episodes when we're joined by Aaron Dworkin, Javier Torres, Deborah Cullinan, Christy Bolingbroke, and Mara Walker. Miss us in the meantime? You can download more Work Shouldn't Suck episodes from your favorite podcasting platform of choice, and re-watch Work Shouldn't Suck live episodes over on workshouldntsuck.co. If you've enjoyed the conversation or just feeling generous today, please consider writing a review on iTunes so that others who might be interested in the topic can join the fun too.

Tim Cynova:

Give it a thumbs up or five stars or phone a friend, whatever your podcasting platform of choice offers. If you didn't enjoy this chat, please tell someone about it who you don't like as much. Until next time, thanks for listening.

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The podcast is available for free on your favorite podcasting platforms:

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If you enjoy the show, please leave a review on iTunes to help others discover the podcast.

Live with Laura Zabel! (EP.16)

Last Updated

April 5, 2020

Work. Shouldn't. Suck. LIVE: The Morning(ish) Show with special guest Laura Zabel, Executive Director of Springboard for the Arts. [Live show recorded: April 1, 2020.]

Guest: Laura Zabel

Co-Hosts: Tim Cynova & Lauren Ruffin

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Guest

LAURA ZABEL is the Executive Director of Springboard for the Arts, an economic and community development agency run by and for artists. Springboard provides programs that help artists make a living and a life, and programs that help communities connect to the creative power of artists. Springboard is a nationally recognized leader in artist-led community development, creative placemaking and cross-sector collaboration. Springboard’s work has been featured by the New York Times, PBS, Wall Street Journal, Stanford Social Innovation Review and The Guardian and directly impacts over 25,000 artists each year in their home state of Minnesota. Through their free toolkits, training and resources Springboard’s programs have been replicated in over 80 communities across the U.S. and internationally.

As Springboard’s executive director, Laura Zabel has been honored with numerous awards, including the YBCA 100, Gard Foundation Award of Excellence and the Bush Foundation Leadership Fellowship for her work with Springboard. Zabel is currently a Common Future Fellow and a creative placemaking policy fellow at Arizona State University.

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Transcript

Tim Cynova:

Hi, I'm Tim Cynova, and welcome to Work. Shouldn't. Suck. LIVE: the Morning(ish) Show. On today's episode, Lauren Ruffin and I are joined by Laura Zabel. Laura is currently the executive director of Springboard for the Arts, an economic and community development agency run by and for artists. They're found online at springboardforthearts.org. She was recently, and deservedly, honored as part of the powerhouse YBCA 100 cohort, is currently a Common Future Fellow and a Creative Placemaking Fellow at Arizona State University, and has a deep love and expertise with shoes, which has been externally verified with one of the funniest LinkedIn recommendations I've ever read. Without further ado, Laura, welcome to the show.

Laura Zabel:

Good morning. I'm happy to be here. I feel some pressure now. Although it's nice, you can just all imagine what great shoes I have on.

Lauren Ruffin:

I can guarantee they're better than the shoes I have on. They might be bedroom slippers.

Laura Zabel:

It's like you're here with me. That's exactly what I'm wearing right now.

Lauren Ruffin:

So Laura, how are things going, and how is your community right now?

Laura Zabel:

As we all are, I think, trying to both sort of hold the idea and the gratitude for what is okay, which is that I am okay and my loved ones are okay. And the reality that our community and our communities are really, really struggling right now. It's been a really intense time, I don't need to tell anyone that, for everyone. And in particular for artists, which is Springboard's core constituency and core work. But yeah, I'm okay and I'm grateful for that this morning.

Lauren Ruffin:

Awesome. And can you share a little bit more for the folks who might not know, a bit more about Springboard for the Arts?

Laura Zabel:

So Springboard's based in Minnesota. I'm talking to you today from Minneapolis, that's where my home is. We have both an urban and a rural office. So our urban office is in the Twin Cities in St Paul. And then we have a rural office in Fergus Falls, which is a community about an hour east of Fargo, North Dakota, in west-central Minnesota.

Laura Zabel:

And we do our work from those two contexts, but we work across the whole state with artists here in Minnesota and also share resources and tools nationally. And our work is really all about helping artists make a living and a life. So we work with artists of all disciplines, all stages of their careers, around business skills, training and healthcare and other kinds of resource connection. And then we also make programs that are about how communities connect to artists and what a community gets back from a healthy artist community, engaging artists in big community engagement work or around big community challenges and opportunities. We think those two things belong together, that art and artists are like a natural resource that needs to be tended to and taken care of, and there needs to be infrastructure to support it. And then people also need to be able to plug in to that natural resource, and understand how it builds power and how they can access power from that resource.

Tim Cynova:

One of the amazing resources that Springboard has just put out is around the Personal Emergency Relief Fund, both your own work and a toolkit for other organizations. Can you talk a little bit more about that work?

Laura Zabel:

Yeah. So Springboard has had an emergency [inaudible 00:03:16] and it typically, in more normal days, supports artists who've had career-threatening emergencies. As you can imagine, those are by and large healthcare emergencies. But we also support artists who've experienced fire or theft after natural disaster. And we also run a Community Emergency Relief Fund that supports artists to do small projects, to respond to community emergencies like police violence or other threats, to immigration or other specific threats to their community, domestic violence, those kinds of things that are less about the personal emergency and more about an artist leading a response in their own community. And so about three weeks ago, when stuff started really being canceled all at once, we realized pretty fast that artists were going to be impacted really early and really severely in that.

Laura Zabel:

We all know the why behind that. Artists are by and large freelancers and contractors, and their work is really dependent on being in the same room with other people. I've been at Springboard 15 years, I never could have imagined that there would be a situation where the bottom would fall out so totally, and so suddenly, for people. You think about all the advice that we give to artists to have diverse income sources. Do school residencies and work in an elder care facility and do community based work and sell your work at markets or perform with a bunch of different companies or perform at events and just... It just all went to zero in about 24 hours here. So we opened up that Personal Emergency Relief Fund because we already had that tool. And we typically get between two and four applications to the fund every month.

Laura Zabel:

And as of yesterday we have over 800 in about two weeks. But I think one of the things I'm super-aware of and that I've been thinking about a lot is that this situation, it just reveals how fragile the ecosystem is for artists. How little net so many artists have. In a way that a lot of us, certainly you all at Fractured Atlas and Springboard and others, have been saying for years, that infrastructure for artists is important, that we need to build systems of support for artists. And I think we have a really terrible example of why that's important now. But I think, in terms of the Emergency Relief Fund, it's a really good example of why that infrastructure matters. Because we already had that system, because Springboard already existed here, we were able to deploy that resource and put it in practice really, really quickly to respond to that community need.

Laura Zabel:

Now we're fundraising for that fund, working our way through the applications. We've distributed about $175,000 in the last two weeks, $500 at a time. So that's put the staff into a situation that has required a lot of work and a lot of attention, and I'm super grateful to them. They've really stepped into this moment in an incredible way.

Lauren Ruffin:

How does that work? I mean one like from a managerial perspective, how do you quickly pivot? I'm assuming that giving out... Again, I had a math completely blank earlier today, I'm going to have another one, but 500 bucks at a time for $175,000 is a lot of work to do and track, and I'm assuming your staff has pretty much dropped everything else and is focusing 100% on doing that?

Laura Zabel:

Yeah.

Lauren Ruffin:

How do you navigate, practically and logistically, doing that?

Laura Zabel:

I think I've been sort of making this a joke lately, that our values were built for this moment, but our accounting system is not built for this moment. So we're having to navigate all of the practicalities and the system pieces of what it means to try and scale up our program that quickly, and especially when it involves distributing money. We're lucky to have an incredible business manager who is an artist himself, and so is really concerned with getting artists money and also is very good at making sure that we're not flagrantly breaking any rules, or making any giant mistakes. So I think one of the things that has served us well in this moment is that Springboard, culturally, is an organization that really values responsiveness. And I think a lot about what it means to be in response and able to be flexible and bend to what the moment needs, or what our constituents need. So I think part of what has sped us through that process of figuring out the systems is that we didn't have to have any of the conversations about whether we should do this.

Laura Zabel:

So we didn't need to take the time that it normally takes to decide. We just, I mean literally in about five minutes, another staff member and I said, "How much money do you think we could put in?" We walked over to a colleague's desk and said, "We're going to put 10,000 in today, let's open it up," and five minutes later it was live on the website. So that part, we are able to move through really quickly. And then I think that buys us a little bit of time to work out the system piece. So we've definitely had to scale that up. That's typically one staff member who runs that program, and we've gradually, over the last 14 plus days, increased that so that more and more staff members are working on the program, and she's able to train them in, my amazing colleague Nikki Hunt, who's both managing the program and training her colleagues to jump in and help.

Laura Zabel:

And we've learned some things too. We typically, because we value responsiveness so much, the typical way that the emergency relief fund works is that we have the maximum possible mechanisms for getting people the money. And because of both the scale of what we're dealing with now, but also some of the realities of the moment, we've had to pare down what those options are. Like for example, one of the options, that in a normal situation is quite popular, is I will you a gift card. But that means that someone has to go to Walgreens and buy a gift card. So we're not doing that right now.

Laura Zabel:

And we've also just tried to pare back and be a little more transparent with our community about which things work best for us. So one of the things we've done recently is just said, "A cheque or PayPal is what's easiest for us. If you need it another way we will figure it out. But what would be super helpful to us, and to the other artists in your community right now, is if one of these options could work for you because they're the easiest for us to manage."

Tim Cynova:

One of the ways that you just immediately responded to what was going on, and it made it into a recent podcast that Laura and I did when we talked about South by Southwest, was the principles for ethical cancellation. Within minutes, it seemed, that conferences were starting to be canceled and you and Springboard put out, like, "Here are some things to think about as you cancel conferences, and as you wrestle with whether you should cancel conferences." Can you break down some of those points a bit for people?

Laura Zabel:

I think we wrote that piece because we know it's human nature, right? When we're scared, when we're threatened, we're all worried about the economy, about what it means for our organizations and our businesses. And when we're in that fear place, we contract and try and grab onto whatever we have. And the people who usually end up losing in that scenario are the people who are the contractors, who are the folks who aren't on the paid staff. Those are the first people to lose out in that situation. And so pretty early on, I think we had a sense that, as it was becoming clearer and clearer that a lot of things are going to be canceled for a long time, and a lot of people are going to lose in that situation, we just wanted to help people, in that kind of fear moment, think about, "Okay, but how can I do this in line with my values, and what are the things that I might be able to put in place that help support my creative community in a different way?"

Laura Zabel:

Or, where are there opportunities to work with artists in new ways? So that piece has really practical stuff, like really asking folks to think about, if you've hired an artist for an event and they've already put in some work, trying to figure out how to compensate them for the work that's already gone into that, even if the actual event isn't going to happen.

Laura Zabel:

And also trying to help people think creatively about how might you pivot. There's a lot of new opportunity and interest in creating content, or online. So could you ask an artist to do something different for you? Could you ask them to make some graphics that you can use online, or could you contract with them for something that could happen in the future so they know that income will be there at some point? Just, I think, kind of challenging and trying to help people think through, when you're in that crisis mentality, how do you make sure you're making decisions that still are aligned with your values and are still supportive of your community? And don't allow yourself to just get in that mindset where you just pull everything back and hoard the resources that you have because you're worried about the future.

Lauren Ruffin:

Yeah. I was really grateful for that resource, mostly because I was talking about it and then I was like, "Oh, I'm going to have to write this thing." And then I finished that conversation and looked, and I was like, "Oh, Zabel got it." I was like, "It's done."

Laura Zabel:

I'm sure there's more things. I wrote that pretty quickly, and I think there's probably... I feel like the situation, we're learning stuff every day, so I think people probably have more ideas that we could add to it at this point. Which maybe we should do.

Lauren Ruffin:

Yeah, South-by was really wild. I mean I was wearing, I was going to go with two hats on, a Fractured Atlas hat and then a Crux hat on and, I mean, the cancellation with no funds back... I can imagine... I'm pretty privileged, but the impact that an Airbnb, after the fact, setting March 15th as the date they would allow cancellations with refunds, to obviously allow for folks not to have to refund South-by, was [crosstalk 00:12:37]. So I'm so grateful for that resource. Oh, go on.

Laura Zabel:

Oh no, go, that's all right.

Tim Cynova:

This is going to be the rest of the episode, "No, no. You." [crosstalk 00:12:45] It's like we're on an [inaudible 00:12:47] call.

Laura Zabel:

I am from Minnesota, I do a lot of [crosstalk 00:12:50].

Lauren Ruffin:

Talk on the phone, remember those days? Do we want to get Diane in, with her question?

Tim Cynova:

Yeah. We have a question from a viewer: "If this pandemic is an opportunity to rebuild in a new way, what changes would you like to see in the sector, in addition to support systems for artists?"

Lauren Ruffin:

That's a great question from Diane. Always a smart question from Diane.

Laura Zabel:

One of the kind of bright spots in the world of support for artists right now, I think, is that we have seen so many folks stepping into this moment and wanting to create, particularly emergency relief funds for artists. So after we opened our fund, we started getting inquiries from people all over the country about how to do that. So one of Springboard's other practices is that we share everything that we do. So we, in the midst of trying to handle our own emergency relief fund, wrote a really quick guide for how it works, just to try and help give people a headstart. And we've seen just tons and tons of people pick that up and develop stuff on their own and make it relevant to their own community. That's a place where I'm drawing some optimism, that it does feel to me like there is a kind of emergent network all of a sudden, of people who recognize the need for support systems for artists and want to build them.

Laura Zabel:

And so one thing I'm really interested in is how we connect that group of people and stay connected, so that we can work on the what's next question. That there's this urgent emergency need, and then I think there's a mid-term need for what's next for artists, and then there's the bigger picture, like what might be built out of this. And I think I've had more conversations in the last two weeks about what, for lack of a better term, what a new WPA would look like, than anyone's ever been interested in having with me before. When I think there's some cause for optimism there, I think there will be, and should be, opportunities for artists be deployed in the kind of repair that will be needed. Both the economic repair and the repair of our social fabric and meaning-making. And I think if that can be combined with this new sense of will and momentum around systems, so that artists could actually be compensated and valued for that work, then I think there's a light there that I feel like really has some possibility.

Laura Zabel:

I guess I will temper that with saying that that's my most optimistic take on things. And then, sometimes... Well, like yesterday, I'll just explicitly say it, yesterday the WHO and the UN launched a call for art for this moment. And you have to submit completed work that will be judged by a panel unnamed panel, and you will receive no compensation. Just exposure. Which, particularly in this moment, I think exposure is a thing we can all agree is not what anyone needs. So I think that I want to stay in that optimistic place, but I also think it's important to acknowledge that that will take a lot of work, to undo our norms around how we value creative production, how we value meaning-making. And that these kinds of crises, if you aren't, and if we aren't collectively as a community, really intentional about what we rebuild, then they just reinforce existing systemic disparities.

Laura Zabel:

So, particularly artists of color and indigenous and native artists, artists in rural places, artists with disabilities, queer and trans artists. They're already more impacted than other folks because they're already dealing with the disparities that existed before the crisis, and a crisis just makes those things worse. So I think there's an opportunity to really think about how we rebuild, and in that idea of, if I'm just thinking about what my biggest wish is, isn't the idea of a new kind of workforce of artists that goes to work. I think it is about rebuilding from this crisis, but also addressing some of those big systemic disparities. Really thinking about how we rebuild in a way that is the future we want to see, versus just getting back to what we thought was normal a month ago.

Tim Cynova:

We have another viewer question: "Since there are so many areas of need in this moment, how do you and your team decide where and how to focus your energy and resources?" This is actually a two part question. The second part is, "Also, how do you decide what not to do?"

Lauren Ruffin:

That's a good question, Andrew.

Laura Zabel:

I think Springboard has a set of guiding principles that we really use and really, I think, are really internalized for all of us, and that guides a lot of our decision making. I think, just for me personally, I feel like one of the things that I care a lot is that, all the time, but in moments like this we lean into the practical. What is the thing that we can actually do right now? So for example, I would like to challenge everyone in our community to not do any more surveys. But think about, instead, what you could do. What resources you have to offer, how you might be able to get those to folks quickly, and maybe there's a way to collect data or to learn something through that process of doing. But I think in our sector, a lot of times the inclination is to want to study the problem first, or want to get some kind of outside validation.

Laura Zabel:

Springboard is, at its heart, a really practical organization. What we want to do is get help to people quickly. So for us, the Emergency Relief Fund was a really logical thing for us to lean into and it felt sort of intuitive. I think in terms of, then, the additional needs, I think a lot of our work in the last few weeks has been focused on how do we connect people to other resources. So we know the emergency relief fund is a thing we can do. That's in our core competency. But how do we reach out to lawyers, to the mental health practitioners, to folks who are working on housing and food, and be able to refer the people that we work with into those other systems, help them navigate those other systems, rather than us trying to develop all of that capacity in house.

Laura Zabel:

So rather than the whole team trying to become therapists in two weeks, which is a terrible idea, how do we find the therapists that are interested in working with the population that we work with, that we have some trust with and can refer people directly to those resources? So a lot of what I think we do, particularly in a crisis situation, is system navigation. In terms of how do we know what not to do... I don't know that we're always particularly good at that. I think part of how we decide what to do, or a part of what I think pushes us to do something, is if we feel like no one else is doing this right now. If there's any way that we can say, "Here's a resource that already exists, let's help people find that," then we're pretty much not interested in recreating that, just for the sake of having it in-house. But if there's a gap, then I feel like our kind of collective culture and inclination is to step to that gap and to try and figure it out.

Laura Zabel:

I think a challenge for us in this moment, and a challenge we've been working through as a staff and having some conversation around, is somebody said to me yesterday, "It's a marathon and a sprint." There is this urgency, and we can't ignore that and just sort of proceed at a pace that might've been normal before. But we're also, I think we're all aware the longer this goes on, that it's going to be a long haul and people are going to continue to need things. And so we do need to protect, just our human capacity, and try to share the load with each other and find ways to set some boundaries for ourselves and for the organization. So, completely honestly, that's not a thing we're particularly good.

Lauren Ruffin:

I don't know if you could tell that really resonated with me, around surveying. You're so right. I feel like there are people who think the world is a House episode, an episode of House, and actually sometimes the dent in someone's head was [crosstalk 00:21:03] trauma. It wasn't anything else. So it's an interesting time. But in that same vein, I'm curious, there's so much information coming out from the government right now, and so much money that's flowing to the government. And my personal worry is that artists and independent contractors and freelancers are going to think that $1,200 that's automatically going to be deposited into people's bank account is all they're qualified for. But there're these huge expansions of... You can actually access loans and emergency funding. Have you started to parse through that, and do you have any plans to roll anything out in terms of information that we can share with our audience, our members yet?

Laura Zabel:

Yeah, we're trying to really parse through that. I agree. I think I both really want people to be able to connect to the resources that they're eligible for, and a lot of really great advocacy went into making sure that, both at federal and state levels, that contractors and freelancers were included in those relief packages. Which I think is fantastic and work that is super-necessary in the arts, but in all kinds of other sectors too. And I think that's a place... Another learning that I think we can take from this moment is that, as artists, I think it's important for us to build solidarity with those other sectors, that sometimes our strongest allies are maybe outside of the arts, are other folks who are in those freelance and contract worker communities. And I have a healthy skepticism about just how those systems are going to work, and how well they might work for contractors and freelancers and particularly folks like artists and creative makers who have really irregular income streams, and aren't able to say, like, "Well, my contract was for $1,000 a month for a year. It was for this residency and these two shows."

Laura Zabel:

So I think we're working on trying to understand what's available, and that's a place where we're also trying to connect to some really great attorneys and folks who can read the minutia of the language a little more clearly. I think we're in this hard space right now where there's been this policy win of inclusion, but there aren't a lot of guidelines yet. So people are just waiting to see how those might roll out. And there's also state-specific resources, and I think that's another place that really points to how fragile it is to make your living as a contractor, that things like unemployment insurance are really important, or being able to take unemployment are really important, if you can make it to the application period. And as an example in the... We were able to gather some data from the first 500 people who applied to the Emergency Relief Fund, and we're able to say that 88% of them needed the money for basic needs and particularly to pay rent on April 1st, which is today.

Laura Zabel:

So there's this real gap between when the bottom fell out and when you might be able to get that $1,200 or see some money from unemployment. And I think we both have to solve for that gap and set people up to be able to navigate those systems in the long-term.

Tim Cynova:

"Laura, I will second these. So smart, so inspiring," from our friends who've been on online. I love that there's just a community who is online having a chat while we're doing this every morning. Also, there is a question that came through, one last question. Let's see. It's someone who is a fellow Minnesotan, [inaudible 00:24:17] Minnesota shoe question because shoes were mentioned earlier, so active listener: "How many Sven Clogs do you own?"

Laura Zabel:

So many. An embarrassing amount, is that an answer? One of my biggest professional goals is to somehow acquire a shoe sponsorship from Sven Clogs in Chisago City, Minnesota, it's a great handmade clog business. Some athletes want to have Nike. I would really like Sven Clogs to be my sponsor.

Tim Cynova:

And with that, Laura, we are out of time. I want to thank you so much for being on the show today.

Laura Zabel:

Thank you so much for having me. It's been great to be here.

Tim Cynova:

Lauren and I started this live stream in part as a way to socially connect with our friends and colleagues, even as we physically distance ourselves right now. To share some laughter and news with each other as we're spread around the world. Before we sign off, we wanted to take a moment to thank the healthcare professionals, the first responders, the scientists, the amazing humans who society depends on who can't simply work from home, and who put their lives at risk in service of others. They're our family members, our friends, our neighbors, and people we'll never meet. Thanks to each of them, and thanks to you. Stay safe, stay healthy, and for those of us who are able, please stay home. Continue the Work. Shouldn't. Suck. LIVE adventure with us on our next episode, when we're joined by Nina Simon, Spacemaker and CEO of OF/BY/FOR ALL.

Tim Cynova:

Miss us in the meantime? You can download more Work. Shouldn't. Suck. episodes from your favorite podcasting platform of choice and re-watch Work. Shouldn't. Suck. LIVE episodes over on workshouldntsuck.co. If you've enjoyed the conversation, or are just feeling generous today, please consider writing a review in iTunes so that others who might be interested in the topic can join the fun too. Give it a thumbs up or five stars or phone a friend, whatever your podcasting platform of choice offers. If you didn't enjoy this chat, please tell someone about it who you don't like as much. Until next time, thanks for listening.

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The podcast is available for free on your favorite podcasting platforms:

Apple Podcasts | Google Podcasts | Spotify | Stitcher | TuneIn | RSS Feed

If you enjoy the show, please leave a review on iTunes to help others discover the podcast.

Live with Christine Bader! (EP.15)

Last Updated

April 2, 2020

Work. Shouldn't. Suck. LIVE: The Morning(ish) Show with special guest Christine Bader, co-founder of The Life I Want. [Live show recorded: March 31, 2020.]

Guest: Christine Bader

Co-Hosts: Tim Cynova & Lauren Ruffin

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Guest

CHRISTINE BADER is co-founder of The Life I Want, a storytelling project with Eva Dienel reimagining a future of work that works for all. She is a coach, facilitator, writer, consultant, and speaker whose sweet spot is the messy intersection of business and society.

Christine is the author of The Evolution of a Corporate Idealist: When Girl Meets Oil (2014). From 2015-17 she was Director of Social Responsibility at Amazon, where she built a global team working to ensure respect for the rights of workers in Amazon supply chains and operations. From 2011-15 her posts included advisor to BSR and visiting scholar at Columbia University, where she co-taught human rights and business.

Christine's writing has appeared in The New York Times, The Atlantic, Fast Company, Harvard Business Review, and numerous other publications. She has given talks to conferences, companies, and universities around the world, including a TED talk in July 2014.

After earning her MBA from Yale in 2000, Christine joined BP and proceeded to work in Indonesia, China, and the U.K., managing the social impacts of some of the company’s largest projects in the developing world. In 2006 she created a part-time pro bono role as advisor to the U.N. Secretary-General’s Special Representative for business and human rights, a role she took up full-time in 2008 until the U.N. mandate ended in 2011.

Christine has also served as a corps member with City Year, a special assistant to the New York City Mayor’s Chief of Staff and Deputy Mayor, and a teaching fellow in community service at Phillips Academy Andover. She is a life member of the Council on Foreign Relations.

Christine was named to the 2012-13 class of the Donaldson Fellows Program, which recognizes Yale School of Management graduates “whose personal and professional accomplishments embody the school’s mission to educate leaders for business and society.”

Christine played squash and rugby at Amherst College and competed in the 2002 World Ultimate Frisbee Club Championships, but now finds her athletic glory running after her young twins. For 2018-19, she lived in Bali with her family as part of the Green School community. She now lives in McMinnville, Oregon, in the heart of wine country, continuing to search for community and a way of life that is sustainable in every dimension.

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Transcript

Tim Cynova:

Hi. I'm Tim Cynova. And welcome to Work Shouldn't Suck Live. The morning-ish show. On today's episode, Lauren Ruffin and I are joined by Christine Bader. Christine is the co-founder with Eva Dienel of The Life I Want, where they're examining the role of work in business in our society and lives. She's the author of When Girl Meets Oil: Evolution of a Corporate Idealist. Written following her roles and policy and planning at BP. She was the former Director of Social Responsibility at Amazon. Previously held roles at the United Nations and Columbia University working at the intersection of human rights and business. And is a fellow member of the Amy Wrzesniewski fan club. Without further ado, Christine, welcome to the show. All right, welcome to the show.

Christine Bader:

There we go. Thank you again for having me. Yay. Good morning.

Lauren Ruffin:

Good morning. So one of the questions that we've been opening up with our guests for yesterday when we did this was how are you? How are you? How's your community doing?

Christine Bader:

Oh well how are we doing? It's up and down. It's up and down. I'd say the last couple days have been tough. I've got seven year old twins here so my husband and I are managing the best we can. But the kids are missing school which is obviously a wonderful thing to be very grateful but it's a little rough.

Lauren Ruffin:

Yeah.

Christine Bader:

I mean we're healthy and we're safe and all those things to be grateful but this is definitely a difficult time.

Lauren Ruffin:

And so, can you tell us a little bit about how you found yourself on this path? I watched your Ted Talk so I know. But I'd love for you to give us a quick intro into how you got to the place where you are at home all day with the kids and writing books and consulting?

Christine Bader:

Oh sure. Let's see. How far back should we go. Well, I'll go to 2015. I got the job on Amazon that on paper looked like the job I'd been working towards my whole career. I'd been working in corporate social responsibility. Working for BP, formerly British Petroleum. Writing that book that Tim, you kindly held out, and landed this job at Amazon.

Christine Bader:

And so my family, we packed up. My husband left his job in New York and we packed up our kids, moved to Seattle. And I took this job and it was great. It was fun to be in this really historic company and I got to build this amazing team. And then one day, just over a year and a half in, I got home to my husband and our kids who were four years old at the time and they were sitting on the couch reading as they often were when I got home from work, but they were reading to him.

Christine Bader:

And I thought, "When did you learn how to read?" And I wasn't working crazy hours, but just mentally, I wasn't as present as I wanted to be. And I had my kids when I was 40. I'm not having any more kids. And so I was never going to have another three year old or four year old or five year old. And I could see what my life was going to look like. And in some ways, it was like, well of course, why wouldn't I do that because my parents did that and everybody who I know does that. Meaning the work, kids, life juggle.

Christine Bader:

So it took me awhile to give myself permission to articulate that I didn't want to do that. And I didn't have to. So I left which was a hard decision, but I left in 2017. We hung out in Seattle for another year after that. And then decided to go on a much bigger adventure. So we packed up and heard about the school called The Green School in Bali which is all about sustainability so enrolled our kids there for the last school year. And we can talk more about that if you're interested.

Lauren Ruffin:

Yeah, I'm fascinated.

Christine Bader:

Yeah. And then, landed back here because my husband is also an ex-corporate person and had been working on his photography so had really honed in on his love and appreciation of artisans practicing their craft. And so pitched to A to Z Wine Works, the largest wine producer here in Oregon to do a year in the life photo project.

Lauren Ruffin:

I'm very familiar with that Pinot Noir.

Christine Bader:

Very good. Excellent. So he's now their first artist in residence so he's documenting a year in the life of a vineyard.

Lauren Ruffin:

This is so ... I'm really excited. Okay. Tell us about Bali.

Christine Bader:

Yeah, Bali. Gosh. I had lived in Jakarta, in Indonesia's capital, in the year 2000, working for BP. And so I had these hazy, rosy, foggy memories of jetting off to Bali for the weekend with my crazy, ultimate Frisbee playing friends. And for these really fun partying weekends. And so I thought it'll be just like that.

Lauren Ruffin:

With my twin four year olds.

Christine Bader:

Exactly. And so somebody asked me the other day what advice I would have for people looking to do an adventure like that. And I would say first of all, stay the heck off of Instagram. It looks like oh it'll all be smoothies and swings. And we got there and I just forgot what it was like being in southeast Asia. We get in the car from airport and we pull out and we're surrounded by a swarm of motorbikes. Which I'd forgotten about, but my husband and my kids had never experienced. They were like what have we done.

Christine Bader:

So there was that. And then there were three big earthquakes in the first month that we were there which was physically and psychologically unsettling. And so I had just forgotten about all the risks of being there. The health risks of Dengue and Rabies and the lack of road safety and infrastructure and potable tap water and all the things that we take for granted. So I will say that it was the family adventure that we were looking for. And we learned how to live out of one suitcase each so that I have all these lessons and takeaways about consumption that we can more about. And just how little we need, right?

Christine Bader:

And being in this place and living in a village where we were surrounded by people who made much better use of what they have than we do here. And really live in a way that embodies community and spirituality and nature and all these things that it was really profound for us to experience.

Lauren Ruffin:

That's amazing. You've officially made me second guess my desire to ... I lived in Australia for a year and I really want to bring my wife and kids there. And now I'm like I don't know. Let me really go back and find these memories so see what this going to be like with 20 years later with two kids.

Christine Bader:

It'll be different.

Lauren Ruffin:

We're different. But we're going to have a thrill line for this conversation which is wine. The Barossa Valley of Australia, another great wine place.

Christine Bader:

Absolutely. And my writing partner, Eva, so part of her back story is that she left her job in San Francisco a couple of years ago to move to Australia with her Australian husband wine maker to run their family vineyard which they'd been putting together for 10 years.

Lauren Ruffin:

Amazing.

Christine Bader:

And ATR Wines and they've won some awards and they're in Australia and so she went from being a full time communications professional to doing freelance writing and being part of running this wine business and so she's building the life that she wants. And that's part of how we were inspired to launch this storytelling project because I've been on this journey to figure out what do I want to be when I grow up and what do I want my life to look like and how do I put those things together. So that's what The Life I Want is about.

Tim Cynova:

One of the pieces that Lauren and I discussed, or referenced in a earlier podcast episode that we did was the one where you interviewed Christopher Delacruz and wrote a piece called "Work Is the New Religion." And that concept has been on my mind for some time after reading your piece as I meditated on it and then the work of our friend, Amy Wrzesniewski around job career calling. Can you recap that piece for people who might not be familiar with it and give your thoughts on it several months on now?

Christine Bader:

Yeah, happy to. So when we launched this project, I put out a call on Facebook. Just a general call for people to share stories about people who were thinking about work differently. And a high school friend put me in tough with her pastor, Reverend Christopher Delacruz of First Presbyterian in Jamaica Queens. And I interviewed him because he's launching a coworking space for the young adults in his congregation. That they're calling 2030 Dream Hub.

Christine Bader:

And it seemed to dovetail nicely with all the statistic that we've all seen, drawing on research from that Atlantic article by Derek Thompson on work-ism. And research from the Pew Research Center and the Economic Policy Institute and the Public Religion Research Institute that 45% of US worker define themselves by their job or their employer. And the percentage of Americans who don't identify with any religion has tripled in the last 25 years. And it's now at about 25%. A third of Americans under the age of 30 have no religious affiliation. And we all know intuitively that working hours are up. Attendance at religious services is down.

Christine Bader:

So what the Reverend wanted to do is he got a grant from something called the Zoe Project. And it's a joint initiative of the Princeton Theological Seminary and the Lilly Endowment of churches reaching young adults in new ways. So he launched this coworking space and we had a fascinating conversation about the tensions that he's experiencing, right? Because he wants to help financially empower his community but he said, "How do we empower folks without idolizing the American narrative of work being the only source of meaning?"

Christine Bader:

So there's inherent tension in what he's doing which I found fascinating. So he's like okay. Well, I'm setting it up in the old parsonage house. And it's a house. So there are all these different rooms. And can we create one room that's just for meditation and reflection. And so that's what the piece was about. Just how ... Whether or not you live a religious or a spiritual life, how does that come into play? How does it fit with work?

Tim Cynova:

We have a question from one of our viewers. If work is our new religion, basically giving us ideas, do you have advice for people right now who are suddenly finding themselves underemployed and feeling a sudden loss of identity?

Christine Bader:

Oh gosh. The only piece of advice I always give people is never to follow anybody else's advice.

Lauren Ruffin:

Excellent advice.

Christine Bader:

Because nobody knows what you need to thrive. And that's part of why Eva and I are taking this approach of sharing stories, right? We're sharing other people's stories. We're not writing the 10 step manual to here's how to be happier at work and in life. And so, Diane, I guess all I would say is to look for examples out there right now and there's such good writing emerging right now of people being reflective and thoughtful. I assume these people don't have school age kids, but such good writing right now of people who are thinking about their identity exactly because of what you raise. And so, I think just look for other people's stories. I'm not going to give any trite advice on how other people should find meaning in their days because I'm having enough trouble with that right now.

Christine Bader:

But it really is about looking or other people's stories. And I think also now, fiction and great literature is also a really nice place to look.

Tim Cynova:

One of the things you wrestle with on The Life I Want. And it's something we've discussed in our own journey, our own wrestling with and you've talked with our Fractured Atlas colleagues Courtney Hart and Nicola Carpenter about this. This is privilege. And in particular, it's specifically white privilege. And when you think about crafting your work, crafting your life, this shows up so much in creating a life we want. And for me, these days, with a phrase that's been rallying around is privilege pandemic. And when we think about virtual work and remote work and who has the opportunity to do that or do you have a home office or do you have a kitchen table or do you have high speed internet access or are you borrowing from the building or do you have kids that you have to homeschool and take care of? And can you talk a little bit about your journey. You've written about it on the website for people who want to know more. But can you talk about this journey that you've been on?

Christine Bader:

I will say that Eva and I in this project are hell bent on making sure that this is not a story of privilege. That this is not ... It's not about everybody moving to Bali. Right? And one of the things that is our tenet, our foundational belief of this project that is actually underscored by this pandemic is that we can't thrive unless we all can thrive. And so it can't be about the work life balance conversation which tends to only occur above a certain income level and people who can drop 28.95 on a hardback or whatever.

Christine Bader:

That it's not about those people being able to be even happier. There has to be ... That our project is also about the collective. So right now Eva and I are thinking about this in terms of four pillars of how do we fix work. It is partly about our individual relationship with work and how do you think about that. But shifting your individual relationship with work and how you think about work will only help so much if you're working in a hostile environment. Which is why we're also looking at employers like you guys who are really on these journeys to be a truly equitable workplace.

Christine Bader:

We also want to look at communities. Like how are communities supporting each other? And that is obviously coming to the floor right now. How do communities in and outside of work support you in living the life that you want?

Christine Bader:

And then finally governments. What are the structural obstacles and that's like too obvious to even get into right now? So we're looking at them in these four pillars because again a lot of these books about being happier at work or just about be happier. Like change your attitude and it'll all be okay. So that's about the project. And I think as Eva and I are writing like any good authors, for us this is also personal and we are both acknowledging our privilege and the fact that we even have the time and luxury and energy to be able to take on doing this project.

Christine Bader:

And so, for me, my privilege is always about well how do I use that to serve? And I think also part of the lesson of being in Bali last year is also realizing like what is enough and that we have enough. We're not rolling in it. And the kids are going to have to pay their own way through college but we've got enough. And so that's part of what we hope to pick apart too is how do we think about people's individual relationships with work and money and power and then also layer on all these structural pieces of the very real obstacles of health care, cost of education, cost of child care and all those things.

Christine Bader:

So privilege is a theme that runs strong through this project and through every conversation that Eva and I have about how we're going about it.

Lauren Ruffin:

It's a pretty radical idea to even begin to think that work should make you happy. My father's attitude about work is work is the thing that sucks so bad it makes you appreciate the rest of life so much more. That's how I was raised, right? Work is terrible. But the purpose of it being terrible is that you can really appreciate play that much more.

Christine Bader:

Right.

Lauren Ruffin:

If all of life is fun ... And I mean that was my attitude about working. It's privilege. But it's actually subtly really freaking radical. As I was watching your Ted Talk, one you're living in a town called McMinnsville?

Christine Bader:

McMinville.

Lauren Ruffin:

McMinville. I grew up in a town called Woodstown. And I was thinking those towns with those basic names are probably pretty similar except now I know that there's a winery there. Although we have wineries in Woodstown now. Now the town I grew up in which was the town with the oldest rodeo in the United States is now New Jersey wine country.

Christine Bader:

New Jersey wine country?

Lauren Ruffin:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Christine Bader:

Bring it on.

Lauren Ruffin:

But as you're talking, I'm thinking about we still had vocational school and I grew up in the church. And I was always fascinated by vocational school and I wanted to take classes. I wanted to get my CDL and drive a truck across the country. My dad was like "Absolutely not, you're taking college prep courses." So I did and I'm like "Well, why do these kids get to have a vocation. Like being a plumber or a truck driver is a calling and college prep is just got to go do this thing that's slobbing through life."

Lauren Ruffin:

But as you were talking about the pastor who set up a coworking space, it strikes that there's a lot of synergy in that work. And in thinking about work as religion and who gets to think about work as religion and who gets to think about work as just slobbing through life.

Christine Bader:

I love the way you're putting that out there. Because I think part of my evolution in thinking about work, just in the past year since we launched the blog and have put out the call for stories and have gotten a lot back. In part, this project grew out of Eva and I having these really interesting discussions about fixed work or blank work. And because interested in all these stories about great employers and but part of me was like, "Man, I had my dream job. And it just didn't work."

Christine Bader:

And so for a while I was like, "Man, work just doesn't work. It just doesn't work." Right? But some of the interviews and the stories and picking up Stud Terkel's Working Again. That classic book interviews of people from actually almost 50 years ago now, right? I have come to realize that work is also how people find their place in the world. That's not all good because people are put in a place, right? And viewed a certain way by the work that they do. But it is how a lot of people figure out how am I of service to society? Where do I fit here?

Christine Bader:

And again, obviously, there's a dark side to that, but work is how a lot of us figure out our place in the world. I have moved off of that work is bad thing. And nobody should have to work and let's just pump up the universal basic income and nobody should have to work and people should just do what they want to do. But I get the value to work. And even in my own journey of I definitely went through this period of like I am not working again.

Christine Bader:

But now I get it. That again, there are skills and experiences that I have that I want to deploy to serve. And so now it's just figuring out well what does that look like? How do I piece together a life that enables me to do the things that I want to do? And tend to my family and have a sense of place and be active in my community and do all those things. It's more just how do I construct that is the question?

Tim Cynova:

Viewer question. Wonder if you're finding stories of people who prefer to or have to keep their identity/thriving/being separate from their compensated employment?

Christine Bader:

Yeah. This is such a good question. And I'm fascinated by it. I actually interviewed a couple yesterday that I hope I'll be able to profile in the blog in the coming months. And they're a married couple who work together. And they're doing a venture now and they talked about how they have completely different approaches to work. And so one of them is like somebody will criticize my company and I'm like, "Oh that's really interesting. How can I fix it? I'm so sorry you feel that way?" And the other partner is like "I just feel attacked. I just feel like somebody has punched me in the face if somebody criticizes my company."

Christine Bader:

I think it's such a good question and it is one that I struggle with. And one of the many topics that I look to our friend, Amy Wrzesniewski's work for because we see both sides of the good and bad of both. Part of why my last job didn't work out for me is that I couldn't leave it in the office. Even though I could. Like I left my laptop in the office and I didn't have calls at night and I didn't do work. But I couldn't mentally compartmentalize it.

Christine Bader:

And so part of me admires people who can do that. But then the other side of it is obvious, which is that if we're going to spend so much of our time and energy and our identity tied up in work, like it had better be something that's meaningful and that I care about. Finding both. And I'm not placing a value judgment on either. But I'm just curious about both because I've certainly had days where I'm like God, I would just love a job where I can just go and somebody will just tell me what to do for a couple hours a day. And I'm part of a structure within infrastructure and organization and processes. And part of me thinks that would be really nice for a little while. And then part of me knows that maybe it wouldn't.

Tim Cynova:

Another viewer question. How can people who are trying to find sanctity in their work or already do so counter the rising survivor's guilt they may feel in the current situation? How can this reframing help them?

Christine Bader:

Wow. That's heavy. Rising survivor's guilt. Well, you serve. I mean you give it all back and give till it hurts and volunteer if you can and give your money if you can't. That's what we're doing here. I know our food banks need volunteers. I'm not in a position to be able to do that. But we're giving as much money as we can to our local food bank and to our local shops and to our local independent store. And to the restaurants that are shutting down right now. And I don't know. I mean, again, this is one of those things where I'm not going to advise other people not knowing other people's situation but I don't know if you can have guilt about survival assuming that you're not doing it at the expense of others. Right? I don't.

Lauren Ruffin:

Yeah.

Christine Bader:

I don't know. But I think that's going to be one of the questions that emerges. How do you serve? How do you be part of acknowledging what helped you thrive and survive and honor that?

Tim Cynova:

Yeah. So we've got a couple minutes left?

Lauren Ruffin:

I have more questions, but hopefully I'll get a chance in the future. Make the rest of folks out there jealous. But as we're wrapping, do you have anything that you feel like our audience should know or anything that's particularly pressing top of mind right now you want to share?

Christine Bader:

Oh gosh. I mean this time is just so ... Everything is up in the air, right? Everything's an unknown. And I just ... I mean I'm still an idealist and I'm still an optimist even with all of the privilege that I have. I'm finding this time incredibly difficult. So I guess my hope and my call is that as we all try to figure out how to rebuild that we do it in a different way and that we rethink every move, whether it's moving back towards going back into the office or spending the way that you used to. Or consuming the way that you used to. That each step back in is thoughtful and deliberate and in keeping with building the life that we want and the communities that we want and the societies that we want.

Tim Cynova:

Christine, thank you so much for being on the episode with us today. Absolutely wonderful to spend time with you. Continue the Work Shouldn't Suck live adventure with us when on our episode, we're joined by Laura Zabel, Executive Director of Springboard for the Arts. If you've enjoyed the conversation, or are just feeling generous today, please consider writing a review on iTunes so that others who might be interested in the topic can join the fun too. Give it a thumbs up or five stars or phone a friend, whatever your podcasting platform of choice offers. If you didn't enjoy this chat, please tell someone about it who you don't like as much. Until next time, thanks for listening.

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Live with Jamie Bennett! (EP.14)

Last Updated

April 2, 2020

Work. Shouldn't. Suck. LIVE: The Morning(ish) Show with special guest Jamie Bennett, executive director of ArtPlace America. [Live show recorded: March 30, 2020.]

Guest: Jamie Bennett

Co-Hosts: Tim Cynova & Lauren Ruffin

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Guest

JAMIE BENNETT is the executive director of ArtPlace America, a ten-year fund that supports artists working as allies in equitable community development.

ArtPlace has invested over $100 million to support projects in rural, suburban, tribal, and urban communities of all sizes across the United States, as well as in sharing knowledge from that work in ways that are both useful and actually used by practitioners. ArtPlace convenes and connects people who are committed to this work in order to help build a strong and ongoing field of practice.

Previously, Jamie was Chief of Staff and Director of Public Affairs at the National Endowment for the Arts, where he worked on the national rollouts of the "Our Town" grant program and of partnerships with the US Departments of Agriculture, Defense, Health and Human Services, and Housing and Urban Development.

Before the NEA, Jamie was Chief of Staff at the New York City Department of Cultural Affairs, where he worked on partnerships with the NYC Departments for the Aging, of Education, and of Youth and Community Development.

Jamie has also provided strategic counsel at the Agnes Gund Foundation, served as chief of staff to the President of Columbia University, and worked in fundraising at The Museum of Modern Art, the New York Philharmonic, and Columbia College.

He currently lives, works, worships, and plays in Brooklyn, NY, and has been sober since 2009.

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Transcript

Tim Cynova:

Hi, I'm Tim Cynova and welcome to Work Shouldn't Suck Live, the morning-ish show. On today's episode, Lauren Ruffin and I are joined by Jamie Bennett, currently the executive director of ArtPlace America. You might also know Jamie from some of his previous roles including such hits as the Chief of Staff of the National Endowment for the Arts, the Chief of Staff of the New York City Department of Cultural Affairs, the Chief of Staff to the President of Columbia University and the Chief of Staff for the Agnes Gund Foundation. Without further ado, Jamie, welcome to the show.

Jamie Bennett:

Good morning, Tim. Good morning, Lauren. How are you both?

Lauren Ruffin:

Good.

Tim Cynova:

Yeah, we're doing well. So I have question for you to start out. How are you doing? Where are you? What's going on where you are?

Jamie Bennett:

Well, I'm okay actually. My partner lives in Toronto, Canada. And so about two and a half weeks ago he and I decided both that we wanted to be together for this and that it made a lot more sense to do that sort of north of the border. And so I've been up here in Toronto for about two and a half weeks, which means as of Friday I had self-quarantined for 14 days and blessedly many of the people that I'm closest with are surviving reasonably well. And so in this moment I'm just very grateful.

Tim Cynova:

So how has the team and organization doing at ArtPlace? How was it typically structured? Were people are able to work remote? Were you spread out already before this all started?

Jamie Bennett:

Yeah, so a couple of things that are worth noting sort of in this moment is that we were set up as a 10 year fund. So 2020, this year, is actually our last year for the mandate that we were given to do the work. So this has been a year of sort of culminating our work. And so it's an interesting moment for things to be sort of paused in this. We're 11 people and eight of us regularly show up to the same workplace. We're in a shared workspace, a WeWork workspace in downtown Brooklyn. And about two and a half weeks ago we went to sort of all remote. And so a little bit I've been describing it as Goldilocks and the Three Bears because each of our colleagues seems to either have too many people in their house or too few. Almost no one has just the right amount of people, but everyone is doing reasonably well.

Jamie Bennett:

And we made the decision last Tuesday to assume that we would be working remotely through Memorial Day. So asked everyone to sort of think about the headsets, additional screens, the kinds of hardware things that would make life more comfortable, assuming that everyone would be working from where they are for another eight weeks.

Lauren Ruffin:

Good deal. And so outside of your organization, what are you hearing from your grantees, your other partners? And if you're giving people sort of advice or nuggets of wisdom, not that any of us have anything especially illuminating say right now besides stay safe, what are you hearing and what are you saying to folks?

Jamie Bennett:

Yeah, so I'm trying to spend a lot more time listening than I am talking in this moment and that ArtPlace, our mission has been to sort of work around the country. And so we've worked with colleagues in Kivalina, Alaska, which is a 231 person [inaudible 00:03:20] community on sort of the Northwest coast of Alaska, all the way across to Miami and Puerto Rico and sort of all of the communities in between. And one of the things that I've been thinking a lot about, I'm in my 11th year of recovery, and I'm thinking a lot about this virus and that frame of addiction because addiction and the coronavirus both hit people indiscriminately, right? Both of them sort of touch on people regardless of our gender, race, ethnicity, socioeconomic status. But our ability to rebound, to be resilient and to resist the impacts of those vary widely by all the kinds of housing, transportation, public health concerns that we've been working on for the last nine years.

Jamie Bennett:

And so one of the things I found myself saying to sort of friends and colleagues is as urgently as we worked for the past nine years to try and make communities more equitable, more healthy, more sustainable, all of those same problems that existed a month ago now exist 10 times, a hundred times, a thousand times more so. And I'm just sort of really thinking about however urgently we were working was just not urgently enough. And so thinking that there aren't a lot of new problems in this moment other than the economy, ha, ha, big other, but that many of those same things that folks had been working on for 40, 50, 60 years are still the things we're going to need to work on in this moment and beyond.

Jamie Bennett:

And there are a couple, bright spots is an odd phrase the use in this moment, but listening to colleagues from San Francisco where there's a chance that San Francisco might end homelessness in two weeks. Right. The problem that we had thought was uncrackable, all of a sudden they've been doing sort of modular housing and things like that and things that we thought were problems without solutions, not being able to provide homes for people who need them, is something we've been solving. So yeah, I think I'm just having all the emotions, all the feels and all the thoughts like all the people.

Lauren Ruffin:

Yeah. So you've, and I actually didn't know this about you until I heard Tim's intro. You've had a whole bunch of chief of staff positions for really high profile leaders. What did you learn in these positions working with these individuals? Is that having an influence on how you're currently working and leading your organization and others, the field?

Jamie Bennett:

Yeah, I think so. I mean, what's been interesting is that chief of staff is one of those, not a made up title, but I think people use it very differently and mean different things when they use it. And so I've used that title to describe the work I did with Agnes Gund, who's an extraordinary individual philanthropist, when I was working for the commissioner of cultural affairs in New York City, when I was working for the chairman of the National Endowment for the Arts. And what was interesting in each of those cases is that I was sort of solidly a number two. I could give advice, I could sort of say on the one hand on the other hand, but I would sort of look to the CEO, to the leader, to the principle person to sort of make the decisions.

Jamie Bennett:

And I still remember the first week, two weeks when I was on the job at ArtPlace and I had sort of moved from that number two role into sort of being an executive director. I sort of laid out all of the pros and cons and then looked around for someone to sort of make the ultimate decision and realized all of a sudden that the [crosstalk 00:06:48] and I mean I had extraordinary colleagues at that point. Our colleague, Liz Crane, and I were sort of the two full time ArtPlace employees and we built out the team and do that. But that notion of sort of the first time you realize that you're where the buck is going to stop is a moment of sort of the record player scratching and sort of saying, "Uh-oh."

Lauren Ruffin:

Yeah, that's, I just, that would be so terrifying for me. Especially after with Fractured Atlas this year, leadership team, I've had the realization I don't want to run anything alone ever again.

Jamie Bennett:

Well you all have, what? You have four CEOs, right?

Tim Cynova:

Yeah. Four of us.

Jamie Bennett:

I can't sort of sort out if that would be more comforting or less comforting.

Lauren Ruffin:

Oh, it's so comforting.

Jamie Bennett:

More comforting. Yeah, totally.

Tim Cynova:

That's awesome.

Lauren Ruffin:

100%.

Tim Cynova:

Having been in that role of single CEO, the four is far more comforting and challenging, but also, especially at times like these. Being on calls with our colleagues at other organizations who, are at the best of times in leadership roles, often isolated and then staff members, those they serve are looking to them for answers and we're human beings and it's like I've never been in a global pandemic before. And with things changing constantly and to have three other people in the organization that you can go to, is really comforting.

Lauren Ruffin:

Yeah. And they've managed to do what everyone thought was impossible, which was teach me to collaborate off of a basketball court. So the world thanks my colleagues at Fractured Atlas. So how are you approaching sort of self-care resilience right now, Jamie?

Jamie Bennett:

Yeah, so it's, what's been helpful is there are enough people in sort of my close circle, both professionally and personally, that some of us, about a third of us, are doing okay in any moment. About a third of us are so-so in any moment. About a third of us are really down in any moment. And so having that sort of circle of folks that are in different places on sort of the emotional roller coaster has been really helpful.

Jamie Bennett:

At work, we instituted a daily sort of 10:00 a.m. Zoom call that we're calling the virtual water cooler. And the idea was, particularly for those of us who sort of feel like we have too few people in our homes, this is a chance to just sort of get together and kibitz and gossip with colleagues and we try and not do any work during that sort of 30 minutes from 10 to 10:30 but just sort of share goofy videos or talk about the disaster that we tried to make in the kitchen or do things like that. And I think that's been really helpful to just sort of have a moment of that sort of virtual water cooler of coming together. And otherwise I'm of that school of thought where I sort of wake up in the morning, try and go out for a run, put on grownup clothes for the day and then at six o'clock try and shut down my work computer and sort of go all in on Netflix. Although we've not gotten to the Tiger King yet, so I don't want to... no spoilers.

Lauren Ruffin:

Congratulations on putting on actual clothes. I've started referring to jeans as hard pants and [crosstalk 00:09:55] never again. I tried to put on a pair of jeans, never again.

Jamie Bennett:

Well as someone said, nevermind the freshman 15 from college, this is going to be the COVID-19 that we're all going to put on. And in this moment, sweat pants are not your friends because they sort of make you believe that everything's okay. Then you put on those jeans.

Lauren Ruffin:

Yeah, yeah. Someone on Twitter was talking about do you have to audition for My 600 Pound Life? Or do they just sort of put you on? We're all wondering what happens after this is done.

Jamie Bennett:

I think they'll just work through the phone book.

Lauren Ruffin:

Yeah.

Tim Cynova:

Yeah. Well it's, Lauren, speaking about what happens after this. So Lauren is both podcasting and live streaming's favorite cohost, but also has her own live stream. And yesterday was speaking with Thomas Cumberbatch, the CEO of Godspeed Communications. And during their conversation, one of the things that really resonated for me that I had not thought about yet, and in sort of a deep way, was what happens when all of this is over? We work in the cultural sector that's built on bringing people together and trying to figure out how we do that when we can't physically be together. But what happens when we can go outside and gather again in public spaces and go to performances and whatnot? I'm curious to get your thoughts on this one, Jamie.

Jamie Bennett:

Well, one of the things that I've spent a lot of time sort of worrying about is I think one of the challenges in getting large groups of people to sort of do the things that we need to do collectively in this moment is that this virus is invisible. You can't sort of see it, you don't know that it's there. You can only sort of see the effects of it. So one of the things that I've been thinking a lot about is I haven't seen a lot of folks sort of offer up clear frameworks of when it's going to be okay to get back to normal life. So I sort of worry that even once we sort of turn things back on and government officials say, "Yeah, yeah, go out and go to the coffee shops." In many ways that's going to look and feel like it did sort of during the pandemic. And so I don't know that folks will trust that.

Jamie Bennett:

So I wonder about a sort of, is there a way to sort of do a slower ramp up and sort of, this wouldn't literally make sense, but sort of think about the idea of opening up the 99 seat black box theaters first, then going to the 499s, then going to the 1200s and sort of working up. And I also think it's been really interesting to see some of the ways that artists have been using Instagram and other online platforms to be able to connect with audiences, not just in live venues. So yeah, I don't know. Four years ago I sort of gave up making predictions about the future, so I don't know that I'm going to make up, I'm going to give one now, but I think there's a very good chance that 2021 is not going to look like 2019.

Lauren Ruffin:

Oh yeah.

Tim Cynova:

Yeah. So we have some of our good friends who are having a good time on the chat with, mainly with each other. They're just mainly saying hi and shouting out. Some have submitted questions. From the amazing Diane Ragsdale has a question for Jamie. Has this pandemic made you think differently about "place" vis a vis creative placemaking? Thanks, Diane for the question.

Jamie Bennett:

Thanks, Diane. And good morning, I hope you are well in New Jersey or wherever you are today. And it's interesting, our colleague, Sarah Calderon, who's our managing director is on the board of a group called DreamYard in the Bronx, which is a place-based education and sort of youth development organization and they've been having daily calls with their board. And one of the things that Sarah said is that frame of place has become much more legible and much more urgent to all of the board members as folks understand what it means to be a group of people who are related by geography. All of us live in many different kinds of communities, communities of identity, communities of affiliation, communities of aspiration. All of us also live in communities where we shared geography with folks.

Jamie Bennett:

So one of the things that DreamYard did in pivoting its work was reinvent itself in this moment as a food distribution hub. So how are we making sure that the young people and their families are still getting at least the nourishment they need? In addition to the online work that they're doing and resources that they're offering. So that notion of place, that those of us who are in a place together are really dependent on the same systems for food delivery, for transportation, for health access, I think has become really, really urgent.

Tim Cynova:

Our friend, Andrew Taylor, great headshot, Andrew, asks us also, thanks for the shout out about my tech set up. You can have whatever you want. I've got way more [inaudible 00:14:46] kits now that I have to stay in my apartment rather than the Fractured Atlas office. But Andrew Taylor is asking us, how is ArtPlace adapting its grants/support requirements in this moment? Are you relaxing constraints, adding more money? Both? Morning, Andrew.

Jamie Bennett:

Good morning, Andrew. And if you're in DC or the DMV area, I hope you and your household are well. So one of the things that makes it a little bit odd to be at ArtPlace in this moment is that we're in the 10th year of 10 years of existence. And so we essentially committed all of our budget last year and the year before, and we're essentially going through paying those things out now. So anywhere that we can relax restrictions, requirements, we are. Certainly with contractors that we work with, we're giving folks the option of front loading payments and so we're happy to prepay for work if it helps with cash flow. But essentially our money is almost entirely already out in the field. There are a couple exceptions that we're working on and trying to work even more quickly.

Jamie Bennett:

But one of the things that I thought was really interesting is, I don't know if folks are tracking the Mary Reynolds Babcock Foundation, which works across the Southern United States, but they've already made a commitment to, I believe, double their payout. They're paying out all grants, they're automatically extending all grantees by a year. They're reducing sort of the oversight requirements for site visits and for reporting and are really moving money out in a really exciting way. So if folks are looking for sort of A plus models in philanthropy, I point folks to the Mary Reynolds Babcock Foundation.

Tim Cynova:

We've got a question from Jason. What can the arts do to build social cohesion while we are all at home? What lessons from ArtPlace do you have to share? Hi, Jason.

Jamie Bennett:

I was going to say, really good morning since it's whatever, 8:20 out in Phoenix. So one of the things I'll shout out is our colleague at ArtPlace, Jamie Hand, who leads our research strategies, one of the things that she's been doing is working really closely with the University of Florida's Center for Arts and Medicine, which is led by the extraordinary Jill Sonke. And this is one of the things that they are talking about very much and are sharing resources. And I think there are a couple of briefs that are going to go out today.

Jamie Bennett:

There's one around the way that artists can help with communications in this moment. How do we actually make things that are invisible feel real and tangible to folks? How do we sort of help achieve the empathy that allows us to sort of have the collective responsibility to each other, et cetera? And the other set of resources are exactly Jason's question, the difference between physical distancing and social distancing. And so this is a moment where many of us, most of us need to be physically distant. I've been working really hard to learn to say two meters apart now that I'm up in Canada rather than six feet. I feel that I'm officially bilingual now, but that notion that art is what connects us and allows us to still have community I think is really important.

Jamie Bennett:

And it makes me nervous that Andrew Taylor is listening in because I think I'm going to misquote his work, but I think he's been doing some work with Ken Wilber's integral theory, and I'm going to get some of this wrong. But sort of thinking about the external and the internal, the individual and the collective. And so the individual external is psychology. The collective external is management. The internal individual is spirituality. And the internal collective is culture. So culture is what we have in common. And so thinking about the DNI's dance party or thinking about Chrissy Tiegen and John Legend in their bathrooms from their grand piano or thinking about the way that the Billie Holiday theater in central Brooklyn is livestreaming some of its work to remind us of the stories of the tales of the culture that we have in common, to remind us that even when we're six feet apart, we're still connected as a community I think is vitally important.

Jamie Bennett:

So if folks want to know more, Jason and others, either go to the ArtPlace website, artplaceamerica.org and look for the University of Florida Center for Arts and Medicine work or go directly to there's. But they have a longer website that I don't have memorized. So I'm not trying to steal their clicks. I just honestly can't remember.

Lauren Ruffin:

Jamie, why didn't you memorize that website? Oh my goodness.

Jamie Bennett:

That's right.

Tim Cynova:

Andrew has weighed in that you indeed nailed it and that he will be moving on to something else now. If anyone does want to hear more about Andrew talk about that, he was on one of our podcast episodes a while back where we talked about the workplace and now this was recorded before everyone increasingly went virtual and remote. But his thoughts on what makes a workplace and what are those millions of things that we don't even give any thought to when we're in a physical space together and now how does that work when we're not? Yeah. Let's see what else we have here.

Lauren Ruffin:

I think it was, I can't scroll up on our chat but someone asked, Jamie, how are you bringing art into your life right now? And I'm really curious about that.

Jamie Bennett:

Yeah, so I think like a lot of folks it's largely music and sort of video performance. So we've got a lot of music at home. And both of us, my partner and I love all kinds of music, so have been listening to old stuff, new stuff, all kinds of stuff. Friends doing private performances. And then an awful lot of Netflix, Amazon Prime and all of that. And so I am non generative. I am not myself an artist. I don't have an artistic practice. I sometimes, well I sometimes sort of misquote the wonderful principle from the musical Grease when she says, "Even if you can't be an athlete, you can be an athletic supporter."

Jamie Bennett:

So I am not an artist, I am an artistic supporter. So sort of Jamie Bennett [inaudible 00:20:44] audience member is how I identify myself. So I'm assuming art is how I'd been nurturing myself, not making it.

Tim Cynova:

Awesome.

Lauren Ruffin:

It's totally great. So while we're sort of shifting gears on, and I want to make sure that we ask this question of our guests, because it's going to bring up so many different answers. What are you finding really useful in your remote setup and routine? Is it working for you and how are you working remote right now?

Jamie Bennett:

Yeah, so at the moment I'm on a laptop and an iPhone. And so I know that a lot of folks are sort of talking about constantly being on small screens as being really difficult. What I'll maybe reframe in my life as a blessing is that I've worn bifocals since of fourth grade, so I'm quite good at working closely and on small screens.

Jamie Bennett:

So at the moment that's been satisfactory. So sort of email and phone. We use Slack as an organization and we've created a sort of slightly and sometimes goofy, sometimes serious Slack channel just for sort of this pandemic moment. So folks are sharing serious things like the World Health Organization's call for creatives in this moment and what they are asking for from the creative community to the amazing, I don't know if you saw on Trevor Noah reposted a woman and a staircase. And so if you haven't seen it, I don't want to say anything else, but go to Trevor Noah's Instagram page and look for the woman and the staircase and it will be the best 10 seconds of your entire life. So yeah, so so far that's been it. And it'll be interesting to see at the end of eight or 10 weeks if that's doable in terms of sort of work.

Tim Cynova:

A couple more questions here. As we start to bring this in for a landing, what would you say are the next two things arts organizations should think about doing right now? And what should they seed right now for the future?

Jamie Bennett:

Yeah, this is an amazing question. I know that Michael Kaiser and Brett Egan at the DeVos Institute have announced a whole bunch of free consulting services and other folks are sort of stepping up. My quick summary of what I've read and sort of been hearing is that for many arts organizations I've been talking with, their number one concern is payroll. How are they going to make sure that they can keep their commitment to the community of artists and administrators who's made their work possible? Their second concern is sort of rent. Does it mean that we're going to get evicted in this moment? And then their third priority, which are all sort of closely clustered together, is mission. How do we keep sort of sharing the stories? How do we keep making connections? How do we do that?

Jamie Bennett:

And I think one of the things that's going to be really hard in the coming months is there's going to be a lot of attention on the next two to three months in terms of recovery, but it's that six to 24 month period that I'm really worried about. And that entities that have a lot of their wealth in the stock market may not have wealth anymore. So foundations, endowments are going to shrink and because foundations have historically used three year averaging, I think their payouts are going to be a lot less and high net worth individuals are going to have a lot less money because they've been in the stock market.

Jamie Bennett:

So folks who have more of our holdings in cash, who have our sort of bank accounts are going to be the ones that are actually going to have more expendable income. So I think focusing on that lower price point activity, how do we get more folks in for $5 activities, not how do we get more $5 million naming gifts is what I think is going to be hugely important in terms of rebuilding the arts business models, but also in terms of rebuilding our communities and coming back together and remembering how to be physically proximate.

Lauren Ruffin:

Yeah, Jamie, that's a really interesting point that I hadn't really refined in my head yet, which is we're talking about smaller dollar gifts. It's really doing what so many lower income, sort of black and brown communities have done in terms of passing the hat to find support for their work and really finding that as an important audience engagement mechanism. So thank you for that. We're almost at time. Really excited that you were here, Jamie. Do you have any departing thoughts as we wrap this up?

Jamie Bennett:

I just think my only thought is that because I was your inaugural guest, in this moment, I am both the best and the worst guest you've ever had on this live stream. And that duality is really exciting to me.

Tim Cynova:

Yes. Jamie, thank you so much for launching this with us today. Thanks to those who have joined the live stream. Continue the Work Shouldn't Suck Live adventure with us on our next episode when we're joined by Christine Bader, co-founder of The Life I Want. Miss us in the meantime? You can download more Work Shouldn't Suck episodes from your favorite podcasting platform of choice and rewatch Work Shouldn't Suck Live episodes over on workshouldntsuck.co. If you've enjoyed the conversation or just feeling generous today, please consider writing a review on iTunes so that others who might be interested in the topic and join the fun, too. Give it a thumbs up or five stars or phone a friend, whatever your podcasting platform of choice offers. If you didn't enjoy this chat, please tell someone about it who you don't like as much. Until next time, thanks for listening.

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Investing in Self: Lisa Yancey (EP.13)

Last Updated

March 27, 2020

We're exploring different perspectives and approaches to personal and professional development and growth in our "Investing in Self" mini-series. This episode features entrepreneurial strategist Lisa Yancey.

Guest: Lisa Yancey

Co-Hosts: Tim Cynova & Lauren Ruffin

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Guest

LISA YANCEY is the President of Yancey Consulting, LLC, advising a spectrum of practitioners, nonprofit organizations, philanthropists, and philanthropic institutions committed to dismantling inequities, enriching disinvested communities, building leadership, and amplifying diverse perspectives. She has worked with, facilitated, and provided pro bono services to over 100 organization or grantmaking institutions in the past 18 years. A lifelong entrepreneur, Lisa’s concurrent ventures include co-founding The We’s Match and SorsaMED, a biologics company dedicated to developing therapeutic solutions for chronic pain management using medicinal cannabinoids.

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Transcript

Tim Cynova:

Hi, I'm Tim Cynova and welcome to Work. Shouldn't. Suck, a podcast about well that. On this episode investing in self personal and professional development and growth. Lauren and I have been conducting interviews on this topic with a number of fascinating people and we'll be sprinkling them into the mix with our upcoming episodes over the next several weeks. To start off this mini series of sorts, a few weeks ago, Lauren and I had the privilege to sit down with entrepreneur consultant, multiple business owner, dancer, choreographer, law school, graduate, and so much more awesomeness, Lisa Yancey. We covered a lot of ground in our conversation including why self care isn't selfish, discipline and mastery, approaching our life as the dash between two dates. What exactly were Lisa and Lauren doing in Mexico and why Choice Hotels will likely never sponsor our podcast. So without further ado, Lisa, welcome to the podcast.

Lisa Yancey:

Thank you. I'm glad to be here, Tim.

Tim Cynova:

So let's just start out with, tell us about yourself and your professional journey.

Lisa Yancey:

When I think about when someone asks me to tell me about myself, I'm like, which parts of myself are we talking about? Self. Let's see. I am the eldest of seven. I am the eldest of seven and a single child from the South. Atlanta, Georgia, specifically lived and now 20 years in New York. So I may be official New Yorker, Boston before that. I would say if you want to say what's the self of Lisa Yancey? I was a dancer and choreographer with a law degree and an entrepreneur who thinks about business. So I'm a creative, I live in creativity both in work and practice and I guess body.

Tim Cynova:

What did the young Lisa want to be when she grew up?

Lisa Yancey:

So a young Lisa wanted to be a dancer. She wants to be Paula Abdul and Janet Jackson combined actually. And she totally was in front of the television doing all the videos because we could not afford to be going no dance class. So dance class was television and learning the choreography there. I can't tell you how many times I tried to not fall from a chair falling over. Thank you Paula Abdul for that and Janet Jackson for that and pleasure principle. But a young leaser saw herself as a combination of Janet Jackson and Paula Abdul.

Tim Cynova:

And that leads to a law degree and New York and what you're doing now. So what was that journey like?

Lisa Yancey:

I tell people all the time that what got me through law school was dance and it was the discipline that comes from consuming lots of content and translating that in the body and the endurance of knowing what you can and cannot do and how to really strengthen your body that was transferable to strengthen your mind and absorbing a lot of content in law school. And so I actually went to law school because undergrad ended and I didn't know what I was going to do with myself and I was like, "Wait, I'm supposed to know, right now? I think, Oh, I need more time." Eh, sure. Law school. That sounds like an interesting fallback plan.

Lisa Yancey:

But I danced the whole time while I was in law school. I was in two dance company. I auditioned for Lion King. I got a call back, but it was in the middle of the second year. So I was like, "Oh, do I leave law school or dance?" It's been my journey into life, develop the art of dance, which is a creative practice in my practice and my life now is... I'm an entrepreneur. I have three businesses, one establish that's been around for now 19 years as a consulting practice and launching to other enterprises, one dedicated to black women entrepreneurs. Another is really looking at the medicinal cannabis industry.

Tim Cynova:

Lauren, you also have a law degree and imagine similar discipline from your days playing basketball.

Lauren Ruffin:

It's Lisa used the word discipline and there are words you don't hear very much anymore. And discipline is one of them and people have described me as being disciplined as a person, so that piqued my interest. I also went to law school because I didn't have anything else to do.

Lisa Yancey:

So anyone who's listening and you don't have anything else to do go to law school.

Lauren Ruffin:

Yeah. I mean that was a three year break.

Lisa Yancey:

Yes.

Lauren Ruffin:

And almost 20 years later, I have friends who've known me for that long, who met me while I was in law school and did not know I was in law, school because I was doing so many other things. So law school was really on the back burner of my life. Discipline and mastery are words that you don't hear very often anymore. And I spend a lot of time thinking about how do you master something using your discipline, to sit down and learn as adults, we don't do that very often to do something over and over and over and over again until you get it perfect. And so often we're encouraged not to be perfect, don't let perfect get in the way of good or whatever that saying is.

Lisa Yancey:

But my dance teacher would have been like, "What? You've got to get it perfect."

Lauren Ruffin:

Yeah. You're going to do this, right?

Lisa Yancey:

That's right.

Lauren Ruffin:

Yeah. No. So, and that's pretty old school. I don't hear that too often anymore.

Tim Cynova:

You both are involved in multiple businesses and are also always in your own way further developing yourself. Lisa, you're one of the most hardcore as it relates to protecting your time and your growth. It's like work hard, play hard, and Lauren, every time I talk to you, you've read another article about something in obscure of thing. I'm curious, let's start with Lisa. Lisa, how do you approach your personal and professional growth?

Lisa Yancey:

I think first I understand that they're not separate. It's just the I and the I am. It's not the I personal and the I professional and the I. It's just I. I'm really grateful for understanding that when I show up in my full self, no matter what I'm doing, it's just me in that cell and so how I protect it. I think one of the greatest lessons I learned was the ability to say no and understanding that I don't have to do anything. I don't have do anything I don't want to do, but that's a big deal. As a black woman coming from the South. From my experience, I want to be clear about that framing because I don't represent all black women.

Lisa Yancey:

Although I absolutely love and my work is dedicated to black women and I'm so grateful for the black women who have really been instrumental to my growth and my understanding of life. But we are all different. We are not one. But this notion of how we are groomed to show up and show out, show up and continue to deliver and prove and deliver. And when I learned that I need to show up for myself and that self care isn't selfish and sometimes it's okay to be preserving of self. In fact more times than not, in order to do anything you need to preserve yourself. And I think that giving yourself permission to one, say no and two, prioritize you was a big key moment to open up the doors in rethinking what's possible.

Tim Cynova:

What does your self care plan approach look like?

Lisa Yancey:

Ooh, my self care certainly lives first and fitness and that's probably because I was a dancer and choreographer and I am one of those humans who can't imagine not taking care of myself physically and love it because it is an outlet and it's a part of who I am and my disposition. But another piece of my self care is travel. I travel passionately, I work very hard, but I love to travel. I love to experience different spaces and places and I'm grateful that I've created a practice where my work can happen in multiple places.

Lisa Yancey:

And the wonderful team that I've developed who work with me, appreciate it and understand that their work can happen in multiple places and we're not restricted to conventional standards or four walls and that, so that's one of the ways I travel for sure. Fitness and meditation. I believe in manifestation and being intentional and speaking into existence and my mother would say about what you want.

Lauren Ruffin:

My answer is going to pale in comparison if you're looking at me.

Tim Cynova:

I'm looking at you.

Lauren Ruffin:

Like, I suppose to-

Tim Cynova:

For instance, I'm looking at you now.

Lauren Ruffin:

Yeah, Tim is looking at me. Self care. So I was raised by a black man surrounded by some badass black women who did not have men to rely on them. And so no has always been a complete sentence for me, but I didn't have to learn that. I didn't notice it until I was in my thirties that actually is a skill that people don't... It's not natural and people have a very visceral reaction when you tell them no. Like just no, no explanation, no with a smile, no with high five, nope.

Lisa Yancey:

It's awesome.

Lauren Ruffin:

And then walk away. People have a very strong reaction to that. So that self care, that being said, I really do like saying yes to things and that's my tragic flaw. Good ideas, I can say no to, but there are a lot of great ideas that I get seduced by. And so I say yes to a lot of stuff. I love learning. So if I hadn't sort of decided to go to law school, I would've gotten a PhD. My father talked me out of it, but now I have the sort of... I'm actually been in one place for seven weeks for the first time in the last couple of years. And I am taking two classes, one at a community college. It's a film tech class and the other in Afrofuturism because why not at UNM and what joy?

Lauren Ruffin:

It's like I have a class every day of the week and I just love it. I'm just learning. It gives you time to think. I've always loved to write and Tim, you'll know this intimately. I have for the last four or five years, had a really hard time finishing anything I start writing because I have to stretch that muscle. I haven't had to do it in a while. And so having the structure around writing exercises in a class where I can talk about it and think about it and have other perspectives and that sort of dialogue and interaction, I think it's going to be a really important part of professional growth.

Lauren Ruffin:

And it wouldn't have been possible if I had a job that required me to be there from 9:00 to 5:00 every day at a desk. So in terms of sort of professional growth and thinking about how we structure our lives with strategy so that you can... That growth doesn't just happen. You have to be really intentional about creating the life that you need to be able to do it. I know that's just a lot of privilege for me to say that, but it doesn't just happen and I do admire. I was telling Lisa earlier today that I admire that she works out when she travels. I've lost 20 pounds while I'm at home.

Lisa Yancey:

Yay.

Lauren Ruffin:

I will put it back on while I'm traveling. That's my next life goal is now that I'm sort of back in shape. I'll never be like I was because I played basketball up until I was almost 35. I played four nights a week. That you're not getting back at almost 40 but the level of discipline it takes be able to work out while you're traveling in different time zones where you don't have a routine. You might not know the equipment. That's my block, but you have to be intentional about it and I think that's the part that I'm still learning and that I didn't know five years ago that I know now.

Tim Cynova:

Yeah. Lisa, when I think about you, I think about discipline and then same way that Lauren was speaking about, you are an incredibly busy, high-performing person who travels a lot and does all these different things. You still make time for people to help them. You still make time to exercise. You still make time for self care and you have three businesses and how do you keep that up? Because I feel like if I just could do it maybe two days in a row, then maybe I can start some kind of theme. You mentioned dance as sort of maybe grounding in it, but oftentimes over our life that sort of falls by the wayside.

Lauren Ruffin:

But is that discipline or going back to Lisa's last answer about the I?

Lisa Yancey:

Yeah.

Lauren Ruffin:

Is it the I?

Tim Cynova:

If only Lisa were here to answer this question.

Lauren Ruffin:

Yeah it's working. Somebody go get Lisa. Can we find her or is she... Let's ask Lisa if it's the I. Is the I the secret?

Tim Cynova:

Get her on the phone.

Lisa Yancey:

First of all, anyone who's listening. I love these two so much, so much. Oh my God. I know you love them too because you've been listening to them.

Lauren Ruffin:

Yeah, both of them, both of [inaudible 00:12:28]. And now they love you too. That's the beautiful thing about our listeners is that they are expansive hearts.

Lisa Yancey:

For good reason. It's interesting to hear it. I'm like, I was going to say Holy shit. Can I say that?

Tim Cynova:

[inaudible 00:12:41] but you can say it.

Lauren Ruffin:

You can say lot of things on this show.

Lisa Yancey:

To listen to Tim to listen to you to describe it. It's different than hearing it like you do all these things then and I guess I don't know any black women who don't do a lot of things. Let me first say that. I was actually in a meeting with Lauren a while ago and we were in a meeting and they were talking about these multiple projects and people were doing this and Oh, you do that and that and that, and I think I actually made the comment, I was like, "I'm sorry, I just don't know any black women who don't do multiple things." So this is just part of the course. This is part of course, like for wall street, they call it diversification.

Lisa Yancey:

For us it's just part of diversifying the multiple passions and desires and things that we love and not feeling limited to fitting in anyone's box because quite frankly, we actually design for many of culture and we designed many boxes and so we don't have to feel confined to them. I think that I do it because some parts of me can't. I cannot. I love Lauren and then there's again, I said I love Lauren and some of the specific things that I really appreciate and connect with Lauren around is the art of learning and the joy of learning, the problem solving and ideation to convert something into something new from an idea.

Lisa Yancey:

The understanding that you don't have to be confined by what others think should be standard to not fall into a standardized thinking and have that liberated, I will say liberated over privileged freedom around that and so I don't know. I mean sometimes I hear from folks like, you don't do much, girl, you need so much. And then sometimes I don't get enough sleep. I will say that there've been plenty of times where I'm like, you need more sleep, or my doctor's like, you need more sleep, so there is a cost to it.

Lauren Ruffin:

Do you know how to sleep?

Lisa Yancey:

I do.

Lauren Ruffin:

Okay. I don't know how to sleep.

Lisa Yancey:

You don't know?

Lauren Ruffin:

No.

Lisa Yancey:

I haven't gotten really in it.

Lauren Ruffin:

Were you always good at it or.

Lisa Yancey:

No? Absolutely not. I had to set an intention. I had to set an intention getting sleep. I had to set an intention of eating regularly throughout the day when in work mode and so those things can be like, "Oh yeah, I forgot to eat or Oh four hours of sleep." You mean that's not normal or five hours of sleep, not norm.

Lauren Ruffin:

Yeah. I'm happy if I get six, but it's usually not a straight six. It's a real messy six if I get there.

Lisa Yancey:

I've been doing great at setting seven.

Lauren Ruffin:

Really?

Lisa Yancey:

Yeah. I mean fell in the past three days, but typically pretty great at setting seven.

Lauren Ruffin:

Yeah. As you were talking, I was thinking about work and it's probably in the last six months that I realized there are people who don't think work is the purpose of life and I don't mean work like work with the big W, they'll all caps WORK. Angry work, but I actually, I don't know how to not do something that is progressive in furtherance of change or I guess I didn't know it was an option and it was funny my... Something happened the other day at home and Cassidy who's 12, my stepdaughter said something like, "Oh, I was just lazy." And I was like, "Hold on. Where did that word come from?" Lazy. I didn't know that word was, I still could never imagine that was that we have to do some real reframing of yourself and who you're going to be. Laziness is actually not an option.

Lauren Ruffin:

I do wonder about... I don't wonder. I know my father, so I know where that came from, but he started working he was five and I started working outside the home when I was 12, so I wonder now two things. One, I'm grateful for work ethic and having the ability to have to work all the time to put different tasks on and to be able to constantly iterate and I worry about the longterm impact of being like my father as he's in his '70s and he loves his job. He's a principal. Here's the whole thing is like, I'm going to die behind my desk. He loves his job and he's still high performing turnaround school. Think he got the fifth or sixth sort of highest most gains in Philadelphia last year, but is that healthy? That's my sort of back and forth in my head about work and how we work.

Lisa Yancey:

The healthy is, I feel like on the one hand is relative to the individual and then I'm sure there are doctors like actually no, there are some basics that you need, but there's something about doing the things that give you joy that gives you purpose and where you feel like my mother says this thing and I'll share it with your listeners. She was like, "Ultimately your life is the dash." And you're like, "Well, what do you mean?" She's like, "When you die, there's your birth date and then there's your end date, but everything else is your dash and if you are doing dash work, like if you want, what's your dash..."

Lisa Yancey:

And that's particularly meaningful for me right now given what happened with Kobe Bryant, for some reason I was telling Lauren earlier that it triggered me in a way of... I don't even know why, but I can imagine. What's my story? What will be my story because there's no question of, there are two dates. There's no avoiding of those two dates, you can't get around it, but what you can inform is your dash and so to hear your father about your father doing work that may be part of his meaningful work. That will be that thing that people talk about, that change lives is a part of his dash and that's what we have control over.

Tim Cynova:

Yeah, that's really powerful. Death always comes up in our podcast episode.

Lauren Ruffin:

Yeah, we really, it’s inescapable” isn't it?

Tim Cynova:

Even outside of the Grieving While Working episode, but I think it's related. I think being present in what you're doing and trying to find purpose, I think there's clarity and realizing that there is an end date and I think that also certainly informs my work and just what I want to learn. The stack of books that I want to read is just growing and every time I see people that I know read or are reading books, every time I run into you too, it's like I'm reading more articles and I'm more books and there's more stuff I want to learn and then figure out how that connects to my life and my work. And so it keeps driving you forward and then you also have to figure out, I can't just keep going like this because I'm going to burn myself out and I'm not going to have time to think and process.

Lisa Yancey:

Then you travel.

Tim Cynova:

Then travel, with all of them [crosstalk 00:19:00]. Backpack full of books. I love that, what your mom said, and I think it sort of speaks to the journey and being intentional around what we want that journey to be like and being intentional about work. We spend a lot of time doing it and we spend a lot of time doing the things and if that's our colleague Paul Olivia always says, "If it doesn't bring you joy, then I mean, why are you doing it?"

Lisa Yancey:

Yeah. Just say now.

Tim Cynova:

And I get that. There are other things that you might have to do because of that, but at least being intentional and like, I'm doing this because of that. Tell me about what you two did in Mexico because it sounds really cool.

Lauren Ruffin:

That was such a... What were you two doing? I was like, "Oh, no."

Tim Cynova:

I said it with the headphones. It's coming out-

Lauren Ruffin:

That was really intense.

Tim Cynova:

It's here.

Lauren Ruffin:

I think you should keep that in, but it was very intense. I felt under the spotlight. I felt persecuted and prosecuted.

Tim Cynova:

That sounded...

Lisa Yancey:

Yeah. Lauren, what were we doing in Mexico?

Lauren Ruffin:

Oh, Tim, what happens in Mexico stays in Mexico. Nope. Most certainly things happen that we want to disseminate to the listeners of this podcast. Lisa, you want to go first?

Lisa Yancey:

No, you go first. I'd love to hear your perspective about Mexico.

Lauren Ruffin:

So I'll start with the... I mean, we did the things that I love to do most with smart women, with smart black women in particular. We dreamed, we did a lot of dreaming. So Lisa touched on sort of the We's, which is an entrepreneurial group, cohort of women, black women, building businesses across a whole bunch of sectors that are all so intertwined and yet so desperate. And we talk about a model for what look like we work to sustain organizations like that at scale. And how do we feed each other? How do we feed and nourish each other? So that's the business stuff. The beginning of the business stuff. Beautiful house. Lisa has fantastic taste. I also am a bougie traveler. So you learn things about where people have you staying. And Lisa and I have the same sort of aesthetic.

Lisa Yancey:

Awesome. Good to hear.

Lauren Ruffin:

You'll never catch me on a... If I die in a Best Western, you'll know?

Lisa Yancey:

Oh, what?

Lauren Ruffin:

Yeah, exactly.

Tim Cynova:

We're losing sponsors left and right here Lauren.

Lauren Ruffin:

If die in a best Choice Hotels, nope. Not sponsoring this podcast. Absolutely not. Anyway, so beautiful location. Mexico's amazing. The food was great. I mean all the things that you want that you need to be generative in a group space, but time together, clear agenda, clear expectations. I mean it's Lisa, it was like Lisa in a nutshell.

Lisa Yancey:

It was interesting. So just to give some context, some business partners and I are starting a company called the We's Match and the We's Match and people were like what? It's like the idea of we, because we are one of we and our intention is to build an online and offline platform that supports black women entrepreneurs being able to net $1 million minimum in their business enterprise and have year over year growth. And so our anchors have been scale wealth and wellness.

Lisa Yancey:

And so we've integrated into the business model and are integrating into the business model. This notion that we don't center it the business, we sent her the woman and we believe our theory of change is that when you send her the person, her business will thrive. And when her business thrive, the community thrives. But it's really, I have always been about how do we build around the individuals and shift this notion of unicorns and this exceptionalism that let's just find the one business that hit the right moment and completely take from that moment and then trash it and get to the next thing.

Lisa Yancey:

We actually want to build and support thriving black women entrepreneurs because we know that their ideas, their products, their services makes the world better. And so we have had the opportunity over the past year in 2019, to work with five projects and one of the projects, it also includes the medicinal cannabis project that I mentioned earlier that we were talking as one of the core projects, but it's across industries, high-performing industries, brilliant entrepreneur, founders across the board from culture to AR, VR, construction, retail, medicinal cannabis and arts.

Lisa Yancey:

And so we had been in conversation with these brilliant women closely and as part of the exchange is if you share with us your core needs because your core needs will help us understand what our business model is. We didn't want to say, here's our business model, apply it. We really want to say what's the need and could we be useful? And so at the end of the year, we came together in San Miguel de Allende in Mexico and was intentional about the full experience of both bringing everyone there and creating a space where they understood that we see them and we see an honor their value and that there's a value in the assets that we bring when we can be in a space that we feel cared for and open and free and not overly expect it to give, give, give, give, give to exhaustion and then sleep.

Lisa Yancey:

And so it was just amazing, and I'm so grateful to be in the company of amazing thought leaders and entrepreneurs like Lauren and others who have been helpful in us thinking about our model moving forward. And so the Louisa match will launch in 2020, and a lot of that has to do with what we learned from those conversations in those spaces and the relationships that we developed in those spaces. And the understanding that the assets that we hold within our community is so great that we don't have to outsource everything, that there's a lot of assets and resources that live within and you compliment that with shifting and creating an ecosystem that's dedicated to the values of black women entrepreneurs thriving.

Tim Cynova:

You've been a successful entrepreneur for nearly 20 years. You are one of the people that I have had the ability to work with who puts their finger exactly on the thing that you're talking about. You might talk for three hours and you're like, "This is the one thing," and you like that is the one thing we should have just said that up front. As you start this new enterprise in this project, what learning, what do you have to do differently yourself as you approach this that you otherwise haven't had to do in part of your work today?

Lisa Yancey:

So my consulting practice has been around for since 2001, so this is the 19th year internal Oh my God. The thing that's different with both the We's Match and Source Summit, but the with the We's Match, what I would do differently in it and what we are doing differently is, first is in partnership. I think that we often start things as solopreneurs and one of the key takeaways that we got from these brilliant women in San Miguel is that if we solve for anything we have to solve for capacity and that not just identify where the capacity gaps are and not just make suggestions around what you should do, but actually do the work with the entrepreneur to solve for it and solve for it in a way that's sustainable. And that's one of the things that we will be doing differently is moving and advancing and taking the learnings from.

Lisa Yancey:

It's the market really. I mean they're great and awesome and I love them, but they're also extensions of the marketplace and letting the marketplace inform how we think about business, but actually advancing and moving forward on that thing faster and knowing that now that I have 20 years in this as an entrepreneur in one way, it don't have to be perfect. It's perfect. Is it placebo? Is it illusion? Just do the thing and know that part of doing the thing, it's learning and that the investments actually you should have learning that happens from it and that if something goes a different way than you expect it, it's not failure. It's part of the learning. It's part of the learning investment as opposed to any kind of shame that I've learned that and that I'm going to carry that understanding with my partners into these ventures. And that's a huge difference than trying to get it alright, know it alright, figure it all out in advance before we advance, before we start, before we implement, so that's a big difference. Lauren what would you say?

Lauren Ruffin:

I'm thinking, because you touched on capacity building in the marketplace. We recently had an incident where someone in a meeting brought up the pipeline problem and without going too much into that hilarious debacle. Funny debacle. I am curious on your thoughts about what is a non-existent pipeline problem in many ways. Because you talk capacity building, which is a little broader. What you're really talking about is how do we connect black talent with black entrepreneurs? Because I mean if you were just in the world listening, you would think that there is no black talent out there. So I'm just really, I mean it's a little bit of a tongue in cheek question, but still it'll be fun to hear your answer.

Lisa Yancey:

So if you are a listener, that's one of the listeners is like, "I want to do more. I just can't find them or they don't exist." We do exist. Really we do. It's not a lack of a talent issue is not that the pool is scarce, there's an abundance, it's just that you're not looking in the right place. You're disconnected to where the core source of ideas are. And perhaps that's because we've been structured to believe that A + B equals C. We haven't been liberated enough to know that a doesn't necessarily won't get to that C but let me think of A square times P squared plus two over here and Oh my God, it's just to my left.

Lisa Yancey:

And so I think that this idea of capacity building capacity and I want to hold one of the things that I think is a part of our unique value propositions that we hold. Also, emotional capacity and wellness capacity and wellbeing capacity in addition to the team and talent and people, but really holding mind, space and heart space into our equation of ensuring that the black woman entrepreneurs who will engage on our platform can succeed. I think about capacity and notions of pipelining and sourcing really in the sense of perhaps you just need to shift the kaleidoscope to the left or to the right and not be so pigeonholed in one direction. And if what you're yielding looking at that one direction isn't what you want, then do something different because you'll get different results.

Tim Cynova:

Well. Lisa, what are your closing thoughts today on investing in self personal and professional development? Thanks. But you want might not have talked about yet that you're like, this is actually really important. People need to really pay attention to this. Think about this.

Lisa Yancey:

I think that if I were to give some closing thoughts around investing in self, I would say imagine the individual who you give the highest regard. When you think about them, they excite you and you're like, "Oh my God, they are amazing," and then put yourself in that place and know that you are deserving of any space, time, investments that you are deserving of that. I think that one of the smartest things I did as an adult, and I'll close with this piece, because I walked away and learned a lot, was in 2014. I made a decision that I wanted to go away to think about what I wanted to do before I entered my 40th season, and I don't come from a trust fund.

Lisa Yancey:

I did not have a silver spoon. I work hard every day. There is no one else doing that. And so this idea of saying I want to go away, and I went to go away from six months and I live in New York. And so there's a cost of living in New York and then it costs of going away to a place. And the place that I wanted to go away to was a place that was French speaking, no political unrest, not on the beach because I needed to focus to be intentional and I wanted to make sure I was in a space where it forced me to manage otherness and the otherness that was not just being other as a black woman, but just a different kind of otherness. And how do I navigate that space while I create a space to imagine what I wanted this decade to be.

Lisa Yancey:

And so I ended up in Aix-en-Provence, it was 30 minutes away from the beach, not quite in Marseille. I could not be in Paris, although it was one of my favorite cities ever because I would've been distracted. And the intention set to get there, to create space for myself, to pause, to sleep for two months, to really sleep from working hard, to even be able to afford to be there and then open up and say, "Well, what do I want?" Just to ask myself, "What do I want? What do I really want? What difference? What's my dash? Really? What do I want my dash to be?" At the end of the day, it connects to... And that's why I started by saying the personal and professional aren't separate because my personal self dries the professional self and the desires around learning and thinking and being intentional.

Lisa Yancey:

My future self wants to be a person who makes a difference in the communities I care about. A meaningful difference that when I'm long gone, someone remembers that this was important for their life. I want to do something is meaningful for people other than that, and I needed to create space. And so I think that one of the greatest investments that one could make is creating space for yourself to pause and breathe and imagine, and listen and then do the other stuff. But you're worthy and everything that touches you, will benefit from you creating space for yourself.

Tim Cynova:

Lisa, it's always amazing to spend time with you.

Lisa Yancey:

Thank you.

Tim Cynova:

Thank you so much for being on the podcast.

Lisa Yancey:

You're welcome. Thank you for having me. Thank you, Lauren. It's always great to be in the room with the two of you. I really mean that.

Tim Cynova:

If you've enjoyed the conversation or just feeling generous today, please consider writing a review on iTunes so that others who might be interested in the topic can join the fun too. Give it a thumbs up or five stars or phone a friend, whatever your podcasting platform of choice offers. If you didn't enjoy this chat, please tell someone about it who you don't like as much. Until next time, thanks for listening.

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Tournaments & Teams (EP.12)

Last Updated

March 20, 2020

[Note: This episode was recorded in late February and early March 2020 before the global spread of COVID-19, and the subsequent cancellation of the NCAA tournament.]

Basketball, business, and beyond! Exploring the topic of building better work teams through the lens of sport. We talk competition and cooperation, rivals and allies, is it really possible to give more than 100%, business “superstars,” and a whole host of fascinating things.

Guest: Laura Jorgensen

Co-Hosts: Tim Cynova & Lauren Ruffin

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Guest

LAURA JORGENSEN currently serves as the Senior Director, Financial Operations and Analysis where she is responsible for driving Fractured Atlas’s strategic financial goals. Prior to joining Fractured Atlas she held roles ranging from the CEO of e-commerce start-up The RunnerBox to varied strategic and financial positions at Royal Caribbean Cruise Lines. She holds a BSBA in Economics from The University of Miami and in her spare time you can find her pedaling her bike up and down the mountains of Asheville, NC. Prior to her life on two wheels, Laura was a First Team All-State shooting guard, multi-time AAU Basketball state champion, and still remains the only woman to ever win Royal Caribbean’s hotly contested March Madness pool.

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Transcript

Tim Cynova:

This is the third preamble that I’ve recorded for this episode as life and events have changed drastically for most of us over the past few weeks. Lauren and I recorded the interviews for this episode in late February and early March 2020, before the global spread COVID-19. As the pandemic made us actively re-think how and where we gathered together as humans, it became increasingly uncertain as to whether this year’s NCAA March Madness basketball tournament would be played. As you probably know at this point, the tournament was officially canceled a couple days before it was scheduled to start... and our planned release of this episode.

While this episode is framed around a conversation that includes talk of the tournament, it’s ultimately an episode about high performing teams, whether in basketball, business, or beyond. And it was a fun conversation, so we’re releasing it.

Before we slide into this episode, we wanted to take a moment to say thank you. Thank you to the medical professionals and scientists who had been and continued to work so tirelessly, oftentimes putting their own selves at risk in service of others' health and safety. Thank you. Thanks for listening and we hope you enjoy the episode.

Tim Cynova:

Hi, I'm Tim Cynova and welcome to Work. Shouldn't. Suck. A podcast about well, that. On this episode teams and not just any teams, basketball teams. Why? Because I work with two of the biggest college basketball fans I know and somehow this episode is going to determine who is the most diehard fan going into the NCAA March Madness tournament. Basketball not your thing? Don't tell my guest. But we'll also be discussing cycling teams. So win-win. I'm joined from the top by podcasting's favorite cohost, Lauren Ruffin. Lauren, how's it going?

Lauren Ruffin:

I'm good. I gave you some early laughter on that.

Tim Cynova:

That's right. We'll leave it in.

Lauren Ruffin:

I think we should.

Tim Cynova:

It's authentic. You've just returned from LA with several interviews in the can for an upcoming “Ruffin on the Road” episode. I'm pretty excited for what you captured there.

Lauren Ruffin:

I'm excited too. I'm not excited about the terrible pictures I took in LA, but we all have growth areas.

Tim Cynova:

Did you take the pictures with your Nokia? I did not. They're not part of my two megapixel photo series. The fact that they're bad, that's actually worse. I took them with a really good camera.

Lauren Ruffin:

You could just say, it was with your Nokia.

Tim Cynova:

Yeah, yeah. "All my photos these days are just with my Nokia phone."

Lauren Ruffin:

I should. I should just lie.

Tim Cynova:

Today we're joined by Laura Jorgensen or LJ, she's commonly known. We met LJ when she was hired as the senior director of finance at Fractured Atlas. As soon as this podcast launched, I knew that come March Madness, we are going to record this episode. LJ, welcome to the podcast.

Laura Jorgensen:

Hey Tim. Hey Ruffin. Happy to be here today.

Tim Cynova:

LJ, we've heard a bit about Lauren's basketball chops already on previous podcast episodes. So let's start with you launch us into your own basketball related background. How did you come to the topic?

Laura Jorgensen:

Oh man, I've played basketball for a long time. I guess I started playing as a kid, fell in love with it, went to a pretty good high school for it, so played there and then got a scholarships playing college and tore my ACL three times in the matter of oh man, probably 12 months. So my collegiate career ended quickly, but straight from there, ended in a good way. Straight from there, I went straight into coaching because I wasn't quite ready to give up the game. So I guess when I would have been a sophomore at college, started coaching back at the high school where I played and coached high school and AAU for a long time. So coached women's teams, coached men's teams. It was a lot of fun. So have a lot of experience with not only being on a team but putting together teams. I love it. I love sports a lot. So it could be basketball, it could be cycling, whatever you want to talk about. I could talk about teams there. I have experience as a player and as a coach on the basketball side.

Lauren Ruffin:

I didn't realize we have parallel basketball lives.

Laura Jorgensen:

Yeah.

Lauren Ruffin:

Except you made it to college before you busted your knees up and I broke my kneecap my senior year.

Laura Jorgensen:

I don't know which is worse.

Lauren Ruffin:

And then broke it again my first year.

Laura Jorgensen:

Which is worse? I'm not sure. The dream question before you go or why you're there.

Lauren Ruffin:

I don't know. I don't know anyone who's come back from the broken kneecap. People come back from ACLs now, but ACL back when I was in college-

Laura Jorgensen:

Devastating.

Lauren Ruffin:

That was, you're done.

Laura Jorgensen:

Yeah. It's so common now. It used to be a deal breaker, but yeah, I got surgery twice in the first year. I came back. I got injured probably first two weeks I was there and made it back for second semester, because that's where the bulk of the games are anyway. And poof, pretty much. Right? I was freak accident. I had my knee brace on and I went to go box out like I was coming back hard [inaudible 00:04:14] hit me in my hamstring and actually shoved my knee so far forward that it tore it against. So a total freak thing because it didn't even go sideways. I anticipated just taking the first semester, the next year off to do rehab and that's when I tore it again. And that's why I was like... So I had already started coaching, my high school thinking it would be temporary and then after I tore it again, that was it. I mean, there was just no coming back from that one. So I still don't have an ACL in my right knee-

Lauren Ruffin:

Who needs it?

Laura Jorgensen:

Who needs it?

Lauren Ruffin:

Overrated.

Laura Jorgensen:

Overrated. Totally agree.

Lauren Ruffin:

You definitely don't need it to be a professional cyclist. So I mean I feel like everything... You barely need a knee for that?

Laura Jorgensen:

No, no.

Lauren Ruffin:

Just some thighs. You just need thighs.

Laura Jorgensen:

Totally fine. Yeah. So one thing led to the other. That's how I kind of got into cycling, because you don't knees for it and most other things you do.

Lauren Ruffin:

That's how I got into riding as well.

Tim Cynova:

According to Lauren Ruffin, you do not need knees for cycling.

Lauren Ruffin:

You don't. Put that on the wall.

Laura Jorgensen:

Put it on a poster, Tim.

Tim Cynova:

I'm not sure if this episode is going to be easy to edit or impossible.

Lauren Ruffin:

We're not going to act right, apparently. We're off the rails.

Tim Cynova:

I've been in meetings with both of you together and this is to be expected. LJ, you told that story during your interview for the job. That wasn't one of the most painful moments. I think my hand started sweating as you were talking and telling that story about your ACL, that's usually not something that's included in a job interview. You're asking questions. Someone tells you a story and you're like, "Oh God."

Laura Jorgensen:

How did that come up? What was the question?

Tim Cynova:

You were doing the top grading interview. Going one thing at a time chronologically through your history.

Laura Jorgensen:

Yeah. So Ruffin when I coached, I also taught middle school.

Lauren Ruffin:

Oh. Got it.

Laura Jorgensen:

Which was kind of a deviation from my collegiate experience as a economics major. That was kind of weird to go teach seventh graders, but it was fun.

Lauren Ruffin:

I also coached. I was way too intense to coach high schoolers now, so I got fired from that job.

Laura Jorgensen:

That's great.

Lauren Ruffin:

I was like way too... I was nuts in a good way.

Laura Jorgensen:

In a good way.

Lauren Ruffin:

The parents of small independent schools just really want their kids to hear great things and I didn't have anything good to say about that team.

Laura Jorgensen:

Neither. I cut that right at the beginning. I had a meeting before tryouts with all the parents. I was like, "I don't want to hear from you. If your kid's going to be late to practice, don't call me. If it's not your kid calling. Don't even pick up the phone. I don't want to hear from you. They are 15 years old and if you don't like it then don't even have them try out." But there was a little more leeway with the school I suppose.

Lauren Ruffin:

After that I went and coached a fifth and sixth grade girls team at an Orthodox Hebrew school, which was the loveliest experience. I had so much fun with those kids. They were absolutely terrible. So many kids didn't have TVs. They'd never even seen a basketball game. It was the most fun I ever had because there was nothing serious about it.

Laura Jorgensen:

Yeah, that's cool. That's really cool. I did camps for a while in the summers to make money. We would do... As a coach, at a school, they pay you, I don't know. It's peanuts to coach. So the one kind of thing they toss your way is that you can use the gym all summer to have camps and that's where you can make your money. So just imagine me all summer long with all ages. Oh, I had a blast. It was the most-

Lauren Ruffin:

It's so much fun.

Laura Jorgensen:

Oh, amazing. When I go home, I still stop by the gym. It still feels like home. You know that feeling when you walk in?

Lauren Ruffin:

Yeah. No, I know.

Laura Jorgensen:

"I'm home." Yeah.

Tim Cynova:

So speaking about TVs, one of the first things I think you both said when we started working together was, "Come March Madness, essentially, don't bother me. I will roll out a television into wherever I'm working and have it on all day long." What is it about college basketball that you two find so interesting, exciting, willing to shut down other areas of your life, perhaps to be part of that?

Laura Jorgensen:

I think it's the authenticity. I think that it's still pure at that level. People play so hard, it means so much to them to win a national championship and I think you lose a lot of that once you get to the NBA. These are dreams. When we talk about our injuries, I think why it's so devastating is because this is a dream you've had since you were a kid, right? To go play in college, you sit in your front yard and you're doing the countdown, "Three, two, one." You're doing the whole deal and so it really is. It's like a lifetime dream that you're watching and you get to experience.

Laura Jorgensen:

For me, I get to experience it by curiously, by just watching it and you just see there's so much magic in March Madness things that shouldn't happen do. It's the Cinderella stories. It's the emotion you get to hear about the fans and the players and the coaches. There's just a lot of mystique to it that I don't think you can find anywhere else. And across sport, I mean it happens at a lot of different tournaments like this world cups and things, but it's just the gravity of it and what it means for people if they were to win it, that you get to watch the whole thing unfold. That you get to see the whole story and that's what's so cool to me.

Lauren Ruffin:

I would say all of that and having played for so long and having been such an obsessive athlete up until recently, you realize mastery, what you're watching is... Especially once you get down to the last 16 teams, you're watching kids who have mastered their craft of playing this game and then you're watching five people work together and basketball is like... My favorite thing to do is to put on headphones and go to a game in person and just watch it in silence. Just with other music on and watching people move and you realize the rhythm of a game and when you're in, the muscle memory that you never forget. So there's a part of me that plays a game with them. When you're watching people play at a high level and it happens in particular women's basketball players, because the game is so pure in a way that that can get into that zone watching college guys play. And then on a less revert level gambling, a couple of prop bets, 50 cents here, a dollar there.

Laura Jorgensen:

It doesn't even matter. A nickel doesn't even-

Lauren Ruffin:

It doesn't matter. When you're competitive, just they're not big bets, but I'm going to win that shit.

Laura Jorgensen:

Yeah, there's a lot of pride in what did that March Madness pool. There is a lot of pride in that. And it sounds like-

Lauren Ruffin:

And shame when someone who picks on colors wins, it's the worst thing ever.

Laura Jorgensen:

It's embarrassing. How many people do you think we'll have in our Fractured Atlas pool? Will it be me and you Ruffin?

Lauren Ruffin:

Two.

Laura Jorgensen:

Two coming in hot. Got it.

Lauren Ruffin:

Yeah, exactly. It'll be us. Unauthorized use of Zoom to watch games.

Laura Jorgensen:

The worst thing is if we extend it to the Slack channel and we come in last place, which will probably-

Lauren Ruffin:

It's going to happen. That's what's going to happen.

Laura Jorgensen:

Good. Glad we're already taken care of. Good.

Tim Cynova:

So we'll come back to how you pick your brackets, but one of the reasons that this episode actually makes it into the Work. Shouldn't. Suck. Podcast is that one of the things that you've said was it's all about high performing teams, not necessarily the most or the best talent. How does that show up on the court and if one of you will please connect us to work?

Lauren Ruffin:

The team-manship at a college level is totally different than it is once you get to the NBA. Because often the teams that win or go to the final four aren't teams that are super stacked. Especially now that you're seeing people go play overseas. I think it's going to be interesting to watch the men's game developed because it's going to become, as kids are opting out of our sort of rigged collegiate system. What you're going to have are just team players and coaches are having to be really thoughtful about how they put teams. I shouldn't say... Because, they're always thoughtful. But how do you create the ultimate chemistry on a team when you don't have a superstar? Because, the superstars are essentially at this point popping out of college basketball.

Laura Jorgensen:

I think like Ruffin is saying, it's really a fine balance because if you look at historically the Cinderella stories in the tournament, the teams that go really far, that shouldn't have gone really far. It's the Davidson's that had a Steph Curry and then a bomb team or like when Kawhi Leonard was at San Diego State and they went... These are future superstars that were surrounded by a supporting cast of everyone who had bought in. That's where I think the team comes in. As a coach, I think it's essential at the collegiate level because you do have so many one and dones guys that come from one year and are out.

Laura Jorgensen:

That generally isn't enough time to build chemistry. So you either have to be a legitimately amazing chemist that can get everyone to gel in a matter of months or you need to get a group of guys together. It's all about that common goal, right? We all want to win the championship, but how does my personal goal of making it to the NBA and getting a lottery after this season fall into play? There's a lot of components that are swirling around and it's getting everyone on board for that same thing and that's how you get the championship team when everyone's all in on it, they're in and on it for each other.

Laura Jorgensen:

I think the best teams I've ever coached or I've ever watched, you can tell, the key thing is that I want to win more for you than for me. I think that's the same thing at work. When you can get people around you that, "I want to do this thing really well for that person and they want to do that well for me." That's when you get really high performing team. When it becomes more than just about you. When that level disappears is when I think you get the elevated teams across any level. It can be in sports, it can be in work, in business. The me disappears and it's more about the us.

Lauren Ruffin:

That's one of my favorite things about the nonprofit sector. Because in theory what we're working towards is really a mission and not the me. That often doesn't happen that way, which is why we have this podcast. But I think that's spot on. The other interesting thing about that chemistry that happens over time with the team is... And I keep thinking about Michigan with John Howard. That team stayed together for a long time and went on to do really awesome things and the negative space, the fact that they didn't win a college championship. It's just so interesting because you have these high performing teams that sometimes just don't get it done.

Lauren Ruffin:

They came back, they did what? Three years together? I think they stayed until their junior year. They were for three years in a row as they came into college, predict to win a championship and did not get it done.

Laura Jorgensen:

But they had that bond. That's like what we're talking about that, "I don't want to let you down, so I'm going to make sure everything... I get my job done because if I don't get my job done, I'm going to let you down, I'm going to let the team down." That's the same in work. You've got to have that spirit of, this has to happen or otherwise it's on me and all the other pins fall, if I don't make sure this happens. When you have really high performing people, they understand that concept and the last thing they're going to do is let their teammates down.

Lauren Ruffin:

Also staying in the face of other offers.

Laura Jorgensen:

Exactly. That's exactly right.

Lauren Ruffin:

It's another interesting... That, that connection to your teammates will do. That correlates to the workplace. We're on a shared leadership team and so the duty that I have to my colleagues, as we all think about whether we're going to stay at Fractured Atlas, take other opportunities that are coming all of our way. It really becomes more of a collaborative conversation than it would be just like, "I'm out of here. I got this other job." It's college sports man.

Tim Cynova:

There's the classic study that was done about investment bankers, highly compensated investment bankers and followed them as they went to their next job from where they sort of made their name and found out that for the most part, none of them were as successful in that next job as they were in the previous job, unless they brought their original team with them. I'm actually fascinated by that. That group that's together actually might be the reason everyone's high-performing, not this person from that person.

Tim Cynova:

We see this a lot in sports. I see this surprisingly in schools and teachers where the third grade class is really high performing. "This class is really high performing and so we're going to break up those teachers and spread them around to other classes or the other classes or grades that aren't as high performing." Then you just end up with usually less than you had before you started because there was something about that group of people who were together that had each other's backs. They had that trust and psychological safety. They work together in a different way and it just wasn't that one person.

Laura Jorgensen:

We see that all the time in sports. I think it's that team. It's that special magic and you can't put your finger on it. And it's why it's so hard to find as a coach because in their individual components, it's one in one, but then it's like one in one makes for. All of a sudden this magic comes together with these specific people that even though they would be superstars in and of their own right, it's that supporting cast that brings the best out of them. You know what I'm talking about. You meet those people that they just bring you up. It's like you want to be your best, they want to be their best, and it's just like oof magic and that's what makes the teams.

Laura Jorgensen:

It's always been interesting to me where that comes from. Is that from the leadership at the top? I think a lot of times it is. They find those people that fit together and they find how to spark that in you that brings the best out of you. But that's interesting for me from both a coaching level in sport but also from a leadership level in business. What forces those interactions? Does it come from the bottom up? Does it come from the top-down? That's always something that I've grappled with. I don't think the answer is always the same but just something to think about.

Lauren Ruffin:

I've always been interested in leaders who... The law firm model, when entire practice groups leave and go elsewhere and also the managerial style of, "I'm going to get this job and I'm bringing everybody from my old job that I like working with me." Obviously I think all the time like, "Could you pluck the four of us from Fractured Atlas and put us someplace else and we will work." Or is it the unique mission? The way that we work here? Is it the organization that makes us high performing? Well one, are we high-performing? If so, is it the organization or is it the chemistry the four of us have?

Tim Cynova:

I think there are some questions that we dove into in the previous shared leadership conversation. It's like the chicken and egg of trust. Where does it come from? I'm curious, LJ, because we alluded to this earlier, not only do you have a background in basketball, but you're currently a professional cyclist in addition to your full time job at Fractured Atlas and running another company. Cycling is different than basketball and that on a basketball team, there are the players and if you win a championship, everyone who is on that team wins the championship.

Tim Cynova:

In cycling, at least the broad perception is that a bunch of people are working so that one player can win, so one person can win. Then I guess if you think about the tour de France, one rider wins that and there are seven or eight other people, just riders on the team who don't get to stand on the podium, let alone many more people behind the scenes who are keeping the whole thing going. Can you juxtapose those two things? How are the dynamics different or the same when you think about a cycling structure versus a basketball structure?

Laura Jorgensen:

I think you hit the nail on the head when you said the broad perception. Because, the thing is that everyone outside of the cycling world looks at it this way. My mom will check results and I've done a lot of things. I've been the sprinter, I've been the lead-out and when I wrote for a really top sprinter in the world and I was last lead out. So my job is to be a last place. I've been first lead-out, I've been last. My mom would be like, "You got 47th place." And I like killed it. We won the race. It is the broad perception that one person wins the race, but in reality that's not what's actually happening. Generally there's six to eight people on a team and they're all working for one person, but if you get the right mix, everyone has a job to do.

Laura Jorgensen:

I feel like between basketball and cycling, basketball I love because it's such a quick game, things are happening all the time. Whereas cycling, you have a meeting with your director before the race. This is the plan. There are intangibles that may happen during the race, but generally you know who you want to win and that is generally what happens. Now everyone's got to buy into the plan or otherwise it's not going to work because if everyone doesn't go all in for that one person, it is going to be a problem, if another team does that. So you're going to line up six people, you're all going to go as hard as you can, make everyone else go flying off the back till the one person sprints.

Laura Jorgensen:

If one person isn't fully committed to that, you're going to lose. So there I think is actually a bigger onus of team commitment in cycling, even though it would appear as if there's not. In basketball, if one person doesn't do, let's call it their job, you can still win the game. In cycling at the top level, you probably can't. One person can mess up the whole thing. I find you need to be jailed more as a team in cycling, even though from the outside it may look like it's more of an individual sport. So it's kind of like this ironic situation you have going on. But from inside the sport everyone is all in. My favorite pictures in cycling are the sprinter winning the race and every one of his teammates have their hands in the air, in the background, especially if they're like right up, they could probably be on the podium and they don't even care. Their hands are in the air because they just won the race.

Laura Jorgensen:

But to your point, a lot of people from the outside don't see that. But it's a super team sport. Everyone has a different role, everyone has different strengths and weaknesses. So I think it's even more like the workplace. Because if you're a director and you're compiling a team, you need lots of different things. You need one person that can just be a workhorse. And then you need one person that can kind of be the in-between. You need one person that can just sprint faster than anyone. And finding all those individual pieces that work together in a functional way is a really, really difficult job. So my hats are off to all the directors out there. And then you've got to make a game plan for each race. So it is difficult, but there's so much teamwork that goes on in cycling. It's out of control and that's probably why I've always loved it.

Laura Jorgensen:

I've always been the type of person I would rather help someone else win the race than win the race. That is way cooler feeling to me. I've done both. There's something more to it, sacrificing your race for someone else, for me. But for other people, they just love to win the race. So you put the two of us together and it's great, but that's the role of a director or the role as a leader in a team, trying to find the right pieces that are going to deliver the result.

Tim Cynova:

I just lucked into some research about cooperation and competition and why it matters. They studied what happens if people compete first and then cooperate? And what happens if they cooperate, then compete. They found that people who cooperate first then compete actually creates friendly rivalries. And then Gavin Kilduff, I think that's how their name is pronounced, did more research about the rival effects and how rivalry impacts your own team's performance. Specifically with NCAA basketball. The better your rival does in the post season this year, the more likely you are to succeed next year. So I thought, "Perfect. I just landed on this research, we're going to be talking NCAA basketball." I know you two have feelings about UNC and Duke. That was actually mentioned in the, the rivalry research about their performance. Curious to get your thoughts on cooperation, competition and rivalry.

Lauren Ruffin:

[inaudible 00:22:00] myself but that's the only way it could work, is if we were collaborators before we were competitors. Because once you're my competitor, especially athletically, I hate you and there's no coming back from that. I can't imagine it working the other way around. Although I mean nowadays the athletic kids, they kind of play AAU and they like each other. But I don't know, I wasn't raised that way. That was not my upbringing. Once we're in the darkness, we have to stay there. We can't come over the other side.

Laura Jorgensen:

It's interesting. Especially in cycling, I've been teammates with almost everyone and now we're all on different teams and all this and it feels like there's a level of cooperation but once that gun goes off or once that ball is tipped, that's all over. It is full competitor and I think in a really healthy way. We are going head to head for the next 40 minutes and after that's over we'll go get a beer. But for right now it is fully on and I think that's a really well understood and accepted concept. There's no bad feelings. "We are competitors right now in this moment and everyone goes all in on that. I'm not cutting you a break. I definitely don't want you to cut me a break." Whoever-

Lauren Ruffin:

[crosstalk 00:23:05].

Laura Jorgensen:

No. Yeah.

Lauren Ruffin:

I want to be you when I grow up.

Laura Jorgensen:

What can I say? It sounds civilized but it's quite uncivilized during those 40 minutes, all bets are off. I do agree. Rivalry, I think fuels so much of it. I mean, I don't know about you Ruffin, but we definitely had some pretty legit rivalries all throughout my career, both coaching and playing and those games were lit. There was just a different atmosphere in the gym. There was definitely a different energy and I think rivalries sparks so much of progress even in business. Think about it, I mean who... Think of so much happens. Even when I worked corporately, so many of the decisions we make so many of them so asinine, we did because our competitors did. But that's the way it works because rivalry is real in my opinion. I mean, people feed off of it, make really bad decisions or really good ones because of it and it's all part of the deal.

Lauren Ruffin:

Oddly enough, I think that my probably most intense rivalry happened after college playing recreationally. There was a woman that I played with who... I love how you guys are smiling like, "What is she about to say?"

Laura Jorgensen:

Yeah, You nailed it.

Lauren Ruffin:

The rivalry was so intense that I wouldn't give her anything she wanted and we were supposed to be friendly. So we'd go out and have drinks afterwards and everything else, but no matter where we were off the court, even on the court, if she wanted to play four and four, I'd be like, "Oh well we only have 16 players so I'm going to go downstairs and work out." So they couldn't play four on four. I would just walk off the court. Everything that I did, I could not turn the rivalry off. I could name several other instances where I just went out of my way to put my finger in her eye just for fun. But good times. We ended up on the... We got so good that we ended up on the court during a mystics game. You know how they do the little fun activities. So they put the two of us out there with two little kids and we nearly... She ended up leading.

Tim Cynova:

The kid or your rival?

Lauren Ruffin:

My rival.

Tim Cynova:

Okay.

Lauren Ruffin:

So it was two adult women with two little kids doing a little layup drill, put on some pants or something random. I don't remember what it was, but somehow she hurt herself. I didn't do anything to her.

Laura Jorgensen:

I have a similar inability to turn the competition off. We went losing here in New Zealand and it's a downhill toboggan open course. Very little breaks or anything and they don't care so much about liability here. They're just like, "Here, go down in a skateboard helmet and see what happens." We were racing and my wife ran a 10 year old child over so she couldn't win. I mean, it was just like... It all goes out the window. There's blinders, right? Ruffin, there's just blinders on. "I'm here to win. That is what I'm here to do."

Lauren Ruffin:

I must win at all costs.

Laura Jorgensen:

I must win.

Lauren Ruffin:

Cassidy, our 12 year old, when she maybe three or four years ago, did girls on the run, a little 5K. It was mostly a 5K fun run. And she didn't want to run. So we were all the way in the back and I was like losing my mind. Imagine having to go 3.2 miles with someone who is apoplectic about being at the end. So she had to live through that. Poor thing. But at one point she's like, "I just want to have fun." And I'm like, "Winning is fun, kid. Losing is the worst. This is supposed to be fun."

Laura Jorgensen:

But how do you think that translates even in the workplace as well to now kids play games that there's no winner and they don't keep score even though... How does that shape society in the workplace and in sports? Is it okay that no one's a winner? We're not-

Lauren Ruffin:

I mean, I don't know. I read too much of Nietzsche who was a horrible person, but horrible person and he was onto something around competition. So I don't know. I always worry that I sound like the old curmudgeon around competitiveness and sort of the how you constantly push yourself for excellence in everything you do and I learned that as an athlete. I know people like, "Don't say 110%, there's only 100%." But there is a point in sport where you think your body is going to stop and then you keep going.

Laura Jorgensen:

Do you think that's just in sport? I'm going to have you pause on that.

Lauren Ruffin:

I was going to say... And I think I learned that in sport. I remember the first time I ever really lifted heavy... My aunt got really into weightlifting, but I was maybe 15 the first time I lifted with her and my arm stopped working. We lifted so heavy and so hard that I could not lift anymore and she was like, "That's okay. You just take your other arm and help this one up but you don't get to stop." I do feel like there is a certain mindset and a competitive drive to just not stop, that I don't know if it really... I don't see it very often anymore. I don't know what to do about that or how we change that. But it's connected to this idea that it's not important if you win and it's just fun.

Lauren Ruffin:

As a kid, how do you learn how it feels to win? To know that you are the best at something for that particular point in time? Not forever. Not that tomorrow you could be the loser and notice I didn't say second place finish. I said, "Loser." But I don't know. I don't know what to do with that. But I do think about a lot in the work context because there are points in time where we hear a lot of excuses about things. There are parts of me that miss being able to just run through obstacles over, under, through however you get there.

Laura Jorgensen:

However. Don't ask questions.

Lauren Ruffin:

Just do it.

Laura Jorgensen:

I think it's so funny because I feel like sport has always been a place and now it's becoming not that place anymore. It's always been a place where it's been okay to push yourself as hard as you can go. And other places, sometimes that's not so socially acceptable. I mean, you look at why investment banks only want to hire athletes. It's because the mindset, you've been drilled into this mindset that like you're saying, it's not that you're going over 100% but you've learned. Most people don't even go 80 they just think they're at 100. So you've learned how to get that extra bit, all of it out of yourself. I always wondered if that disappears from sport, where it's going to be socially acceptable to be able to still push yourself. In sport, even cycling, Tim, I find to be such a microcosm of life because you do these crazy hard training blocks and it's rest, recover. You've got to go hard to go easy.

Laura Jorgensen:

That's how I live my life. You've got to go hard to go easy. You've got to earn it, right? I'm not saying... Because I think some people, I can be intense for some people if you didn't know that. It's not that I don't go easy, it's just I go hard first and then that's where you find the balance. It's not that balance doesn't exist, but I don't find balance just living in the middle. I find balance and going full gas and then when the time is right letting off and I find that, that probably comes for me from sport, whether that be training for basketball or training for cycling, but that's something that I always wonder in the workplace what that looks like because we talk about work life balance, but what I think that's translated into is always living in the middle and people are afraid to push those limits because if you're pushing the limits, you're not balanced.

Laura Jorgensen:

This will be an argument and I'm sure people will refute what I'm saying, but in my mind that doesn't mean that you don't push the limits. It just means that you push them and then when it's time to stop pushing them, you can back off and take that break.

Tim Cynova:

Man, I think this is, as you both were talking about excellence and excellence in what you're doing. We see this a lot in the cultural sector with artists. I used to run a dance company. Highly trained performers, highly trained artists are pushing themselves to the edge and figuring out where that is so they can hold it right there. I used to play trombone, never got to the edge. I saw someone else get close, but similarly honing a craft over and over and over so that you're getting as close to perfect as you can and where you know where that and then you can translate that into other things if you want, but it's that ability to find out what excellent looks like, whatever that might be in yourself as well, and then dedicate yourself day in and day out to figuring out how to get there.

Lauren Ruffin:

I think I've talked about this article I read last year in business insider on... It was a parent writing about their kid trying out for the youth orchestra at Juilliard when he talked about how rewarding it was to watch his kid master something to play the same piece over and over and over again. To understand the nuance between it being really good and not so good, playing facing the accompanist and not facing just all the various ways that you really get good at something. What I struggle with as a manager in the workplace is, you don't understand what excellence looks like without critical immediate feedback. One of the things I've always loved about sport is whether it's from a coach or from a score or from your time or whatever, you immediately get really, really harsh raw feedback about your performance in a way that it can be really hard to do in the workplace.

Lauren Ruffin:

By that I mean my father was an avid basketball player and fan yelling at me during games about not being able to make a left handed layup. Just completely laying into me from the sidelines. I appreciated that feedback because one, it shamed me into doing better. Shame is a very important feeling for humans. But beyond that, the immediate feedback of missing a layup that's wide open in front of people and knowing that what you have to do the next day is go make 500 of them at different speeds, at different angles on the left side of the basket until you know that you can do it right, every time. It's very hard as a manager to tell another adult.

Lauren Ruffin:

You need to go back and write this paragraph 40 times until you get it right. Or this paragraph is absolutely terrible and I think that editors do that and that relationship. But if you're in an organization where you're managing people who are again juggling different things, that sort of harsh, critical, immediate feedback is really difficult to do and people aren't expecting to receive that in the workplace anymore.

Tim Cynova:

I wonder if this is where rivalries come into play, friendly rivalries. But people who force you to raise your game inside the workplace. I can think of a number of people that I currently work with. The two of you included. There's something about people who make you raise your game, who pushed back, who do it better than you do, who you're like, "I've got to level up because I can't coast off of what I used to be doing." I think that's one way that that shows up in the workplace because yeah, that gives you immediate feedback sometimes, but it's not at the end of the day, no one's flashing up a score. I'm sure there are companies where someone's flashing of a score, maybe sales.

Lauren Ruffin:

So the March Madness, basketball tournament season is upon us and the NCAA bracket announcement is imminent. Talk me through how you each prepare for this moment. How you fill out your brackets, maybe the best result you've ever received or achieved and what are some historical highlights?

Laura Jorgensen:

I got to share my secrets first?

Lauren Ruffin:

I don't have any secrets at all. I gave up doing a bracket that I really cared about 10 years ago. And so now I do one automated, I do one by my favorite colors of the moment. Which people always win using that crap when you're in the office pool. So I do a favorite color bracket type thing and then I do one that's kind of just based on gut intuition. But my best result ever was I picked Yukon to win the men's bracket. Was that like 2014 when they won? 2012 when Campbell Walker was on that team, they won the Maui invitational in the beginning of the season and I said they're going to win the whole thing this year. I called it right that year and I called it right in my bracket. I got a whole lot wrong in the bracket, but the thing I got right was that Yukon was going to win.

Laura Jorgensen:

Since I'm a data person, this is going to be a technical answer to this question. Because when I fill out a bracket, I fill it out to win. And it depends on the pool you're in because there's a lot of different methodologies for scoring. So there's some that it's this... It's simplistic, how many do you get right? And that you fill out a whole different way than a way that's like, "My favorite type is seed times round." And that should points for the round. Because say you pick a number 16 to win in the first round and you get 16 points, that's a big thing. So there's this weighting of underdog yet by the time you get to like eighth round, even if you pick the first seed, that's still a lot of points.

Laura Jorgensen:

So in that scenario, always pick the nine seed, because nine is worth more than eight and it's a 50-50 split of who's going to win that game. Every year there's a five, 12 upset, you got to pick one of those. Now it's getting even like four, 13s. So there's a lot of technical things that go to it, but I'd say I'm an emotional ticker cause I always want the underdog to win. So I pick by emotion and counter to what Ruffin says, I never go by who does well in the early season because none of that matters by tournament time and I go off momentum alone. So who's got the hot team at the moment? Who's rolling into the tournament with a lot of wins and who's going into it with a lot of confidence? Is usually how I pick. If it's a toss up, who's got the better coach always wins.

Lauren Ruffin:

Yes, I do look at seniority. Who's got an older roster? But it's going to get weird because the last couple of years you've got great players deciding to play overseas or just sitting out altogether for a year till they're eligible for the NBA. So I feel like parodies. I think this is the year we're going to see a 12, 13 seed get into the eight round. This year, there's a lot of parody happening, so it's going to be interesting. It's going to be actually really fricking stressful.

Laura Jorgensen:

It's going to be a great tournament. Going to your point. I think everything has changed since they made the 19 year old rule and there's teams that used to have one and dones don't anymore. Now a lot of teams that win it, they either have one superstar. You look at the Steph Curry or the Kawhi Leonard that took these teams all the way. So I'm looking at topping right now, and Dayton. But Dayton, they're not underrated though, is the problem. He's so good or like John Moran. How far did that team go? I think if you have one all star, it could take you-

Lauren Ruffin:

Or Collin Sexton a couple years ago with Alabama, it went way further than I thought with him.

Laura Jorgensen:

Such a toss up. Then you pick, you're like, "Am I putting all my chips on this one kid?" Maybe. And it's a big win or a big loss. I feel like it's always a gamble.

Lauren Ruffin:

On this child.

Laura Jorgensen:

To an 18 year old human.

Lauren Ruffin:

Oh, this child.

Tim Cynova:

I went to the University of Cincinnati and before I went there everyone's like, "Bound to make final four at least once during your time there." It might've been my first year there where in the second round, Kenyon Martin broke his leg in the game and it was like poof, up in snow. And there's just a downward spiral. I don't know what they did there in the course of my time there, but they never made the final four.

Tim Cynova:

Selection Sunday is on Sunday. We're recording this on Tuesday. Selection Sunday if my Googling of terms is correct is on Sunday. So you two must already be doing research in the lead up for this because there's some conference tournaments that are happening. What does your prep look like for this?

Lauren Ruffin:

I haven't watched a lot of college ball this year. I've been pretty into the NBA this season because the NBA has been really interesting. So this week is my catch up on basketball. I guess I started last week before. I caught a couple of, San Diego State looks good. I feel like LJ who slacked about that a bit using the Slack for professional reasons only but so I'm catching up. So we'll see where I end up by the end of the week. And then match ups matter. We didn't say that, who they're playing matters. So I don't know if it's really worth it to get really neurotic about it before the brackets are done, before the brackets are kind of set.

Laura Jorgensen:

I agree with that. I think that the match-ups for sure have to fall to see who's playing who, because it makes all the difference in the world. Are you big and slow plane an agile team? Are you playing them in the first round or the sixth round and kind of like you were speaking about the injury there. One of the big things I look at is depth of bench. Because this is not one game, it's several and it's who's got the stamina to make it the whole way. So if there's a team that's got like three strong players, but once they go into their bench, they're in trouble, that is not a team that I pick far along the road. So it is a huge matchup thing. I don't do a ton of prep prior to the bracket being done because it's all just speculation at that stage. Just energy spent, energy spent. So I wait-

Lauren Ruffin:

And conference championships. Inevitably there's a team that would never get the tournament except that they randomly win their conference and then you're like, "What am I going to do now that Tougaloo College is in the tournament? What am I going to do with is?"

Laura Jorgensen:

I'm going to pick them because I just like the name Tougaloo.

Lauren Ruffin:

Apologies to all of our listeners who happened to have graduated from Tougaloo. Surely Thea Franklin who I went to law school with, went the Tougaloo it popped into my head. She's not listening for sure.

Tim Cynova:

All right, so as we close this episode, let's return to the title of the podcast, Work. Shouldn't. Suck. Do you have any more thoughts about how we can relate this topic that we've been spending the best hour on to work, not sucking?

Lauren Ruffin:

Well, I always go with team-manship. Everything I learned in life, and I know that sounds cliche and cheesy, but I really learned from playing basketball and basketball in particular, unlike all the other sports, I played. Soccer, too many people on the field, field's too big. But basketball in particular, having five people on the court in relatively close quarters, it's a dance. When it works, when you understand your team, you have good chemistry, there's nothing better than playing a game with people you like and people you play well with. And conversely, playing with someone who doesn't know the game, and I don't mean from a technical... Technically you play with people of different skill levels, that's inevitable. But playing with someone who just at a philosophical level you really dislike playing with is painful.

Lauren Ruffin:

You can tell a lot about a person from their game. I think that's particularly true with women's sports because the level of technical skill in women's basketball, it's a really pure form of the game. So yeah, I've hired people based on how they played on the court. I hired one of my favorite point guards to play with, to run communications for an organization and she ran the communication shop exactly like she ran the game as a point guard and it was fantastic to watch. So I think it matters.

Laura Jorgensen:

Yeah, I have to second that. I do say so much of this does relate. I mean, just talking about how I pick my bracket and how teams work. I think good teams, so much of it starts at the top down, so it's like where's the leadership at? How is the coach bringing people into the program? It starts at the whole recruiting phase, which I think it does an organization as well. Who are we bringing in? What is the style, what is the mission base of this? And that filters down. That starts at one level of leadership and it goes right down to your team captain who then filters it down to the rest of the team. I think successful organizations work that way as well. There's a common goal that we all have. We all know what it is. It's filtered down through every single person and every single person buys in.

Laura Jorgensen:

It's not like one person doesn't buy into what the strategy is. Nope. It just won't work. I think it's the same in an organization. And once you get people behind that common goal, magic can happen. And that's what happens in the tournament, is that everyone's bought into this thing and they say, "This is our goal. We're going to win the tournament. It doesn't matter if you're 16 seed or one seed, and that is what we're going full force in." That's where you see the magic happen. I think in organizations as well, it doesn't matter if its sport, it doesn't matter if it's business, it doesn't matter if it's dance. When you have a group of people that all say, "Look, I'm putting my blinders on. This is what we're doing and nothing's going to stop us." Amazing, amazing things that shouldn't happen can happen.

Laura Jorgensen:

That's the magic of March Madness. It's the magic of these startups that are in a garage that all of a sudden are these massive organizations. It's because they don't actually care about what's logical, what should be happening. There's a common goal that they all have that they just go all in on and it's beautiful and I think it's beautiful to see in sport. It's beautiful to see in business across all things.

Laura Jorgensen:

So I think teams and leadership are the key to all of it and this common goal that everyone gets behind and goes after. Teams that win the tournament have all sorts of obstacles in their way, just like businesses do. But they're the teams that don't get derailed. There's a lot of teams that they go in, "Hurrah, we're going to win this thing." And it's all great, and then they get one guy in foul trouble and they start to crumble. It's the people that are resilient and can kind of smart these curve balls that really are standing at the end of the thing. That's true in business and in sport.

Tim Cynova:

Lauren and LJ, it's always a pleasure spending time with you. My best wishes to both of you as you enter this college basketball playoff season. Thanks for being on the podcast.

Lauren Ruffin:

Thanks. Really looking forward to the Fractured Atlas pool, with just the two of us.

Laura Jorgensen:

Going to get a top two. I know it.

Tim Cynova:

If you've enjoyed the conversation or just feeling generous today, please consider writing a review on iTunes so that others who might be interested in the topic can join the fun too. Give it a thumbs up or five stars or phone a friend, whatever your podcasting platform of choice offers. If you didn't enjoy this chat, please tell someone about it who you don't like as much. Until next time, thanks for listening.

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If you enjoy the show, please leave a review on iTunes to help others discover the podcast.

Crafting Virtual Workplaces (EP.11)

Last Updated

March 14, 2020

We're talking remote work arrangements. Specifically, we’re talking about what teams and organizations can do to introduce, experiment, and iterate on virtual work tools and arrangements, especially in light of things like the spread of COVID-19.

Read our accompanying piece: How to Transition to a Virtual Workplace Overnight

Guests: Shawn Anderson, Nicola Carpenter, Andrew Hanson

Co-Hosts: Tim Cynova & Lauren Ruffin

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Guests

SHAWN ANDERSON currently serves as the Chief Technology Officer at Fractured Atlas where he oversees the organization's software development operations. In that role, he serves as one of the four members of the organization's non-hierarchical leadership team. Prior to joining Fractured Atlas Shawn was a founding partner at Gemini SBS, where he managed the development of web applications for a number of U.S. Department of Education funded projects including the Federal Resource Center, the Regional Resource Center Program, the Family Center on Technology and Disability, and the Technical Assistance Coordination Center. He Holds a B.A. in user interface design from Hampshire College.

NICOLA CARPENTER works on the People team at Fractured Atlas, where she finds ways for tools and processes to better align with the organization’s purpose. She believes in tools so much that she sets personal OKRs every quarter. Prior to joining Fractured Atlas, Nicola worked for a variety of arts organizations including MoMA PS1, Walker Art Center, and Heidelberger Kunstverein, and she still has a particular love for museums. Originally from Minneapolis, she received a BFA in Art from the University of Minnesota and continues to stay creative through knitting and sewing clothes. She is currently in too many book clubs, but still somehow finds time to read books about organizational culture for fun. You can find her on Instagram and Twitter at @colacarp.

ANDREW HANSON is currently the Senior DevOps Engineer at Fractured Atlas. Prior to that position he has spent the last 12 years at everything from start-ups to Fortune 500s applying his infrastructure design and automation skills. Formally trained as a Research Psychologist, and receiving his M.S. in Social Psychology, he started out applying motivational theory to the world of video games. From there he rediscovered his love of technology and made a career change to the path he is on now. Outside of work Andrew runs the Orlando Linux Users Group, and enjoys being a Disney family with his wife and three boys.

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Transcript

Tim Cynova:

Hi, I'm Tim Cynova and welcome to Work. Shouldn't. Suck. A podcast about well, that. On this episode we're talking remote work arrangements. Specifically we're talking about what teams and organizations can do to introduce experiment and iterate on remote or virtual work tools and arrangements, especially in light of things like the spread of COVID-19. We'll explore ideas about how to structure the infrastructure from software to stand-ups. We'll talk about spoiler alert, how people can actually get work done when no one's watching them and we'll address things like building trust. Approaching this with intentionality and introducing agency in ways that allow people to better craft work arrangements where they can thrive.

Tim Cynova:

We're joined by people who have a wealth of experience building, managing and working in remote work arrangements. People with titles like Chief Technology Officer, Senior Dev Ops Engineer, and Associate Director of People Operations. Our guests include Shawn Anderson, Nicola Carpenter and Andrew Hanson, and a little later in the show, we'll again be joined by podcasting's favorite cohost, Lauren Ruffin. So let's get going with Andrew Hansom and Nicola Carpenter. Andrew and Nicola, welcome to the podcast.

Nicola Carpenter:

Thanks for having me again. I feel like I'm on these so frequently that I can almost compete with Ruffin for the podcast's favorite co-host, but Ruffin's going to win every time.

Andrew Hanson:

And thanks for asking me to be on.

Tim Cynova:

Before we really dive into the meat of the topic, Andrew, most people probably have some idea about what an operations or people operations professional does. Also, Nicola has been on the podcast a couple of times talking about that, but they might not know exactly what a Senior Dev Ops Engineer does. Can you break this down for everyone?

Andrew Hanson:

I'll try to make this as short of a rant as possible. It's actually funny to me when I hear that somebody works in operations because to me what I do is operations. So generally in the tech field, when you talk about operations, those are the people that keep your servers running, keep your email up, keep it so you can continue to make Zoom calls and all those types of things. When I started in technology, that's where I started my career, which was called operations. Generally you were either called a systems engineer or a systems administrator. That's kind of where I started. And then the field kind of shifted a little bit and we came up with some new... I don't want to call them titles, not that I'll get into this now, but dev ops really isn't supposed to be a title, it's supposed to be a philosophy, but a lot of companies took that and have dev ops engineers now.

Andrew Hanson:

So I am a dev ops engineer, which basically means that I try to take my skills from operation side and managing servers and I try to also marry that with some development work and also understanding what the other developers that I work with kind of go through and making their lives easier on a daily basis.

Tim Cynova:

That's awesome. So also a future podcast episode where you've talked about dev ops as a philosophy. We'll be reaching out about that one too.

Andrew Hanson:

I have a lot to talk about on that one. That would be great.

Tim Cynova:

Great. Awesome. So today we want to take a moment, especially with a lot of organizations right now thinking about introducing almost immediately remote or virtual work arrangements as the spread of in particular, COVID-19 is really making people worry about gathering, taking transit, the spread of an infectious disease. A lot of organizations seem to be going from zero to 60 on this, without having given some thought to this that might allow them to be more intentional with rolling it out. So I wanted to have an opportunity to talk with both of you about in your experience, things you've done, things that have worked well, things that haven't worked well, what tools are available for people to use maybe immediately? What kind of switching costs or adoption costs might be introduced into an environment where there is remote work? Let's just go high level. When you think about the difference between working in a physical office with other people and working remote or virtual, what comes to mind for both of you?

Andrew Hanson:

Well, for me the first thing that comes to mind is a difference in the way that you interact with people. I think everybody can relate to working in an office or in entertainment or restaurant, any of those places where you're kind of around people all the time and you have the "water cooler" talk and you have these kinds of face-to-face interactions with people that don't go away when you do remote work but are definitely greatly reduced. And so the way that you interact with people needs to be more intentional because you're going to have less of these non-intentional interactions.

Nicola Carpenter:

So we have this ongoing joke that just keeps on getting more amusing of the working from home and homing from work is how I think about it, my mind. But think of two comics. One of them is the things that you imagined someone doing when they work from home but in a physical office. So like there's a laundry machine next to their desk and their pet is sitting below them, anything like that. And then there is someone working from a coffee shop that carries along with them a whole fax machine and printer and a physical phone and then just plugs it in, in a coffee shop. I mean, it's an absurd thought, but I love how it kind of shows some of the things that we think about that might be different. And then also shows how we're not doing those things.

Nicola Carpenter:

I mean, if we're working from home, it's not like we have an actual physical water cooler, which would be amusing if we all had water coolers in our homes. But I mean I think a Fractured Atlas, we try to... And I think we've gotten really good at communicating virtually in a way that is just as... I don't want to say productive, but I guess it is productive but just as decent of a conversation as we do in person. I mean for example, we are recording this podcast virtually the experience of doing that is very similar to the two podcast I recorded with people in the same room. So I think that there are a lot of similarities that we don't necessarily think there would be similarities for, but there are definitely differences. I think that if people were to say there are no differences, they would also not be correct.

Tim Cynova:

I saw on Twitter yesterday that someone posted, "I guess we're about to find out which meetings really could have been emails after all." And I thought, "Yeah, right. Yes. Finally."

Nicola Carpenter:

I know. First, I just want to say not everyone can work remotely and I think that, that's also important to acknowledge in a conversation like this. There are jobs that it is impossible to do remotely. I mean, sure there's telemedicine, but for certain things you have to go to a doctor in 3D. There's food service. There's lots of various things where it would just be impossible to have that work in a virtual world. So I think that we are talking about a smaller group of people than every single employer, but also it's bigger than I think a lot of people think. I mean, I do talk to people and they're like, "Oh, well I could never work remote because of this, this, and this." But they say things that aren't necessarily barriers. But I think that, that's something... Where was I? What was the actual question? I wanted to use it as a caveat and I was going somewhere that was going to be really interesting.

Tim Cynova:

We might actually find out what meetings actually could have been emails.

Nicola Carpenter:

What magic. What magic we need. Part of me is kind of happy that people are rethinking these because I think we always should have been doing this. We always should have been thinking about what meetings do we need? We always should have been thinking about, how can we have more flexible work environments? Because I mean, you already have people in your workplaces who live with disabilities, who live with chronic illnesses, who might not be as able to come into workplaces, et cetera, but part of me is thinking, "Oh, okay. Well, this is an opportunity to have people think of this, but I also worry that people are going to do things too quickly, not put any effort into making virtual work, work and think that it fails. I wonder if this push to have more people working from home will make more people think that it works or have more people think that it doesn't work.

Andrew Hanson:

I think that's a good point that you bring up because for context, I've been working on remote teams for probably six out of the 12 years that I've been in tech. So obviously in tech, remote work is something that's very normal. Even here at Fractured Atlas, the engineering team has always been completely remote while the rest of the team has traditionally been in an office and has made that move only fairly recently. But I think it's a good point that you have to be very intentional about these moves and you have to be very intentional about the things that you're doing when you're making this move to be remote. It's very easy to just say, "Oh, you don't have to come into the office because you have a laptop."

Andrew Hanson:

But if you don't think about the things that people do in the office, if you don't think about the ways that people communicate, if you don't think about the ways that meetings are handled about the tools that people have access to or don't have access to when they're not in the office, it's going to sink and it's going to cast a shadow on working from home, when the problem wasn't working from home, the problem was the way that you implement it. So prior to coming to Fracture Atlas, I worked at a fortune 500 company and this is exactly what happened. We had an amazing manager. He did a very big push to do remote work and work from home.

Andrew Hanson:

Our team was doing very well at doing that remote work, but that wasn't being reported back to my manager's manager and so at this point it was cut off and suddenly everybody had to be in the office from eight to five every day. And one of the worst things you can do is to take your team who's working very well, who maybe not all, but for the most part 80% or more are enjoying remote work and then suddenly take it away from them. Because remote work opens up a lot of really great things for people, a lot of freedoms in the way that they can work, in a lot of the things that they can do and generally speaking, people don't like when something they like is taken away from them. That's kind of the flip side of the coin, is that when you're pushing for this momentum to do these things, you have to be very careful and very intentional. Because if you take that away, people are going to generally be upset.

Tim Cynova:

The loss aversion theory. You don't know what working virtually is like and then you have it and you're like, "Oh that's actually really great." And now you lose it and you didn't know how much value you put on that. So I once was speaking at a conference in Canada and I did the classic thing where it wasn't until like four days before the conference that I thought, "Oh, is my passport still valid?" I looked at my passport and sure enough, no, it had expired. So I had to go to the passport renewal website and look at expediting renewal for a passport. On the top of the expediting your passport page, it says at the time, "One way to avoid expediting your passport is to not wait until it needs to be expedited." But I thought, "I mean, that is great information and great advice, but I'm sort of in this situation where I need to expedite my passport, so not really useful this time around."

Tim Cynova:

I kind of feel like for organizations, yes you should have been putting a lot of thought into intentionally creating workplaces and how people work in different styles and whatnot, but at the same time we need to do this tomorrow is what I think increasingly a lot of organizations are feeling like. So for people who are like, "Yeah, that's great. I'll give some more thought to it the next time around, but how do I do this right now? What's the first thing that I need to do? Where do my files live? We don't have phones. We might have desktop computers and hardwired phones and a physical server at our location that has files maybe we have laptops. Maybe we use something like Dropbox. I haven't heard of Slack. I don't know what flow dock is. There's this Trello, there's Zoom, there's BlueJeans. It seems overwhelming in the moment. What advice would you have for organizations who find themselves in this position right now?

Andrew Hanson:

Before we get into that, I have two points I want to say on that. The first thing is from a technical operations perspective, that's absolutely terrifying. To have your boss come to you and say, "Tomorrow we're going to have 500 remote workers." From an infrastructure perspective alone, that gives me heart palpitations. So please if you're listening to this, don't do that. Try to be a little more intentional than that. The second thing is like it blows my mind that in 2020, this is the first time that we're really having this conversation about this. What is so great about the typical office? What is really the benefit of the typical office? The thing that I hear all the time is like, "Oh, but you get people together and people need to be together." But you look at all the research and everything out there and it shows that, that's just simply not true.

Andrew Hanson:

All the research shows that people work just as well from home. People work just as well in remote spaces, doing remote meetings, things like this where we can see each other on a screen. So why is this the first time we're having this conversation and why are we freaking out about this now, because this is the first time we're having this conversation?

Nicola Carpenter:

I also think that it'd be very hard to say, "Oh 500 people, they're all working throughout tomorrow." It also stresses me out a little bit and I understand that there are companies that have to do that and are trying to figure out how to do that. I'm trying to think, I'm like what is the first steps I would say, but I guess my first thing is that, okay, you haven't thought about this before, so it is going to be hard. I don't think it's going to be easy for anyone if you've never thought about it and you have to do it now. I think that kind of is a good? Well, I mean this is a reason that we've had as a argument for having remote work options from forever in that like what if something happens to your physical office? What if people can't get there? What are your backup plans? So I think that, that's maybe not the most optimistic and being like, "This is going to be hard for you." But I also don't want to make it seem like it will be super easy and set people up for immediate failure.

Tim Cynova:

One of the things I'm hearing from both of you or one of the themes or reading between the lines is it's not one thing, don't set it and forget it if you have it, if you're not iterating and adjusting, I guess is the point. Yes, it maybe that one person that one time used to work remote when they needed to for whatever reason, but it never really worked for anyone else. Or we try it right now because we have to, it fails because we weren't prepared and we never do it again rather than why might that thing have failed? Was it the right person?

Tim Cynova:

Were they able to work from home? Did they have the right tools? Or did it fail because they had to call in on a physical phone and they were the only person of 20 people who wasn't in that meeting and their voice couldn't be heard, literally or figuratively in that meeting. And then so how do you address for that? How do you iterate and adjust because of that? Not, "Oh, it didn't work for us at one time." Or, "It doesn't work for us this time." It must be in that, remote work does not work for our organization. Broadly speaking.

Nicola Carpenter:

I feel like that's recurrent on this podcast is, how do you think about these things and iterate on them. But I would want that to be the biggest takeaway of, okay, we're going to try these things now, but we're going to continue to have those conversations that we don't have to be in the situation again in the future.

Andrew Hanson:

I would definitely agree with that. And in technology there was this big shift and it came with the dev ops movement, so they call it agile. Being agile basically met you fail fast. So you build fast, you put out the smallest amount that you need just to get your product out to market and you fail on these small little things, but you iterate, you iterate very quickly. I think the same thing can be applied to this and I think it's to that point, which is you shouldn't just say, "Well, we put Slack and Zoom out there and people didn't use them and nope, it just doesn't work. We can't do it as an organization."

Andrew Hanson:

I have a hard time believing that most corporations, businesses, obviously with the exception of some things like Nicola pointed out before, I have a hard time believing that you can't have remote work. I just really do. After being in the industry for 12 years and seeing the amount of remote work across a plethora of different types of businesses. It would strike me as very surprising that your company is the proverbial special snowflake that can't make remote work, work correctly.

Tim Cynova:

One of the things that probably bears mentioning is at Fractured Atlas where we all currently work, we have coworkers that includes some of us who work in 12 different States and six countries. We're an entirely virtual or distributed organization, but that didn't happen last month or that didn't happen all in Q4 of last year. It was multiple stages that took us from being a place that everyone worked in the same physical office to where we could support people that wherever they wanted to work. Because they had tools like a laptop and VoIP phones and it was virtual first.

Tim Cynova:

Everyone joins a meeting on Zoom because that's just what you do even if you're physically co-located and that Slack is the way we communicate and that everyone uses Slack. Not just this team or a couple of people, but we also did it in a way that rolled it out. Almost all of the tools that we used or the very beginning iteration of the tool started with our engineering team. Andrew you mentioned has always been entirely distributed but people vetted that and then thought, "All right, here's how it works. Now, let's roll it out to another team." And then you sort of spread through that. So for those who have slightly more time, who are looking to do this over slightly more time, that's one way to get the organization familiar with tools before company wide adoption.

Nicola Carpenter:

I would like to say, I mean, I know that people are feeling the urgency right now, but I hope that people don't avoid thinking through some of these things just because of the urgency. I hope that people are still taking the time to think through all of the things that we like to think through when we do change management. How is racism and oppression layering over these changes that we're making? How is this setting up teams for resiliency and self care? How is this... I hope that people are still thinking about all those things that we continuously talk about here and in our work at Fractured Atlas and with Work. Shouldn't. Suck. I mean, yes, there is a sense of urgency here, but I also think that we can't forget a lot of these things that we're also trying to think about, at the same time of creating great places to work.

Tim Cynova:

Let's go to some listener submitted questions because I think this will bring us down to the tools that we can use, how we can roll things out, how we can approach things. One of the things we've already touched on a little bit is something that Kate Stadel sent us around managing trust without micromanaging. It's a really big theme. One of the reasons people don't introduce remote work is because we hear this all the time, "If I can't see people, how do I know they're working?"

Andrew Hanson:

I always find that the most hilarious question. Because would you rather have the person underneath you, your work or whatever, working incredibly hard, as hard as they can, putting out a ton of work for five hours a day or sitting in an office for eight hours and four of those hours they're on their phone looking at Facebook. People do this, right? Obviously you're not going to work five hours straight, you just can't, right? Our brains cannot focus in that way. We need to take these kinds of structured breaks from the things that we're doing, but the point is kind of do you trust your worker? Are they getting their work done? Are they missing deadlines? Are they hitting deadlines? What does it matter if you can see them or not? If you don't have trust in them, you don't have trust in them. Quite frankly from my perspective, being a manager, that's a management problem. That's not a worker problem.

Nicola Carpenter:

I think if you're talking about specific tools that help with this, I mean, we have a whole podcast about objectives and key results. It's a way to transparently see and set priorities throughout the quarter to have these conversations more frequently. I know some people at Fractured Atlas have used something called GoalFest, to plot out what work is happening in a week. But yeah, I completely agree with Andrew that there's got to be a way, besides seeing people sitting at a desk to assess if people are doing their work or not. Because sitting in a desk and looking at a computer screen doesn't necessarily mean that work is actually happening.

Tim Cynova:

This kind of feels like designing for the one percent or maybe designing for the five percent, the edge cases. To the point that if you could trust this person to get their work done the way they're supposed to get the work done before you introduce this, why would you not trust them until they prove you otherwise that maybe they can't work remotely? Maybe virtual work just doesn't align. There are some really amazing, high-performing, talented people who do not like working remote or virtually, they just don't work well in that kind of environment. But let people demonstrate that after you've provided trust. If you can't trust the people you work with, I think you have bigger problems than that and maybe things that relate to performance improvement plans or moving them along or whatever it might be.

Andrew Hanson:

I think just to tie into that point is that the old saying, the bad apple spoils the bunch, right? You're taking a very extreme case and guess what? There are absolutely going to be people who abuse the system. There are always people who abuse the system for their own game. That's just how it works. Are they necessarily on your team? Maybe, maybe not. There might be one in an organization, there might be five, there might be none. But we can't take an extreme situation of one person or two people who are going to abuse the system in order to not have to do as much work and look at that as a reason to not do something across an entire organization.

Tim Cynova:

Paul Millerd posted some questions on Twitter, also wrote a great article about virtual work. One of the questions that they sent us was, how do people raise issues when they're stuck? It feels related to this. I trust the people, what they're doing, but getting stuck in person when you just spin around and talk to someone might be different than getting stuck and spinning your wheels for hours while you're trying to figure it out. Because what do you do? Reach out to someone, toil away. What's your advice for when this happens? When people have issues, they feel stuck. This might also relate to their other question about how do you control flows of information?

Nicola Carpenter:

So I think, I mean, if there was a company that had this question that they're trying to look into what it would mean to working virtually, I would say, how do people do it now? If it's that someone walks over and asks them a question, then maybe something like Slack asking quicker questions via some sort of messaging thing would work for that. But also, I mean that's why we have some meetings. I think that setting those expectations is just as important in an office as it is working virtually. And that, yes, maybe you can't walk over and ask a question but maybe that wasn't the best use of time in a physical office anyway.

Andrew Hanson:

Being from the engineering team, I have a slightly different perspective on this. So first just let me say, getting stuck is not necessarily a bad thing. People come up with incredibly creative solutions when they get stuck. That's something that happens all the time, especially in engineering where you're dealing with a really tricky problem and you're trying to figure it out and you get stuck. Sometimes if I spend an hour or two on it, I come up with a really great solution.

Andrew Hanson:

So let's not get stuck on getting stuck is a bad thing. That'd be the first thing that I would say. The second thing, to Nicola's point is you have Slack. We mentioned Slack a lot. There's other chat tools out there as well. I worked at companies that have used Skype, which is now I guess transitioning Microsoft teams. If you're a more security conscious organization, there's self-hosted things like matter most, which is basically a Slack clone and other tools out there that you can use, but you have a chat system and you have private channels or you have being able to privately message someone and say, "Hey, do you have five minutes? I'm stuck on something." Something nice and easy.

Andrew Hanson:

Maybe it's just done via Slack or you say, "Hey, can you jump in? For instance, Zoom with me and I'll share my screen. Can you look at this with me because I'm just stuck on it. I think it probably takes a little more... Self-discipline is not the right word, maybe it is. To reach out to someone and ask for help versus just maybe spinning around in your chair being like, "Hey, I need some help with something." But to say that there's no way or that there's no real corollary between working from home and working remote between the two, I think it's just incorrect. There's absolutely ways to be able to do that exact same thing and have that exact same interaction.

Tim Cynova:

I know different teams approach this in slightly different ways. Andrew Taylor posted a question asking, "Curious about how you make opportunity for "drop-in" or unscheduled conversations among the team. Do you leave your video running during an open office hours or is it that you just ping someone on Slack and pop in? I know on the engineering team you have some pairing together. You also have open conversations where you just talk about other things, but some teams have fully scheduled days where there isn't really a drop-in. You wait until the next meeting that you have and you bring your thing to that or you post a question in Slack. Curious if you have any thoughts on Andrew Taylor's curiosity about this drop-in or unscheduled conversations.

Andrew Hanson:

So again, I think this is interesting because to me it's the exact same as in an office. If my boss is running from meeting room to meeting room, I don't really have a chance to drop-in and ask that question either. That to me is kind of the same thing. I can speak on engineering, specifically what we do is all the time with my boss and I'll just private message him, "Hey, do you have five minutes? Do you have 10 minutes?" "Yeah." We jump into zoom room, we do a quick five, 10 minute call. A lot of times it ends up being 30 minutes as most of these kinds of ad hocs do and then you kind of go on with your day. So a lot of this, I think for me with my background in psychology, just goes back to not knowing and then being afraid.

Andrew Hanson:

So people are afraid that you're going to lose all these things when you go to remote work and you're really not. There's really not that much difference other than you're not in the physical same space as the other person. Now you have to be intentional about the things that you do. You have to be intentional about the changes you make and the way that you put these opportunities forward for people. But it's really not that different.

Nicola Carpenter:

I think that that intentionality kind of forces people to figure out what is important in the day and I think that that can be helpful. For example, I've learned that it's very difficult for me to sit in front of my computer for eight hours without having some kind of either communication with people or podcast, if I don't have some sort of interaction. If I don't do that and I've learned that I should either intersperse this or there are a few people also work at Fractured Atlas who also work similarly where we'll just like, "Oh, do you want us to talk about something?" We'll either talk about something related to work and make an excuse to have a meeting or I'll just listen to podcasts, which somehow fills that kind of need for human interaction. I don't know. I don't exactly know how that works, but it fills that.

Nicola Carpenter:

I think that that it's helped me realize how I shape my day and how I work best and I think that if everyone has to think about that, I think that it helps people be more mindful about what they're doing in a workday, how they're shaping their day, what they need to be successful in that day, which are all the questions that I think that we have been asking with Work. Shouldn't. Suck. from the start.

Tim Cynova:

Yeah. They're often the things that when you go to the office, you just know you show up at 8:00, 9:00. You leave at 5:00, 6:00, 7:00, whatever time and you assume without really thinking about it, if I'm at the office, I've been working and however I get what I need done during the day is maybe the best way to do that. When you work at home where you can work virtually distributed, you have to give some more thought to what times is the best time to eat? I need to make sure I get a shower and get dressed. How long can I work before I really need to stop because my brain just shuts off and I need a break? When we were getting ready for the transition at Fractured Atlas, we had a lot of monthly full staff meetings that just took a topic every staff meeting.

Tim Cynova:

Loneliness or creativity, what do people do? How do you set up your work day? Do you have something on your calendar that says you need to get up and have lunch? Do you have kickball scheduled at 6:00 PM three nights a week because it's going to get you out of the house, otherwise you'd just work until 9:00 and then... Or not even realize what time it is.

Nicola Carpenter:

We should probably talk about how do people structure their day.

Andrew Hanson:

The one that I really want to talk about besides how people structure they day, I'd to talk about that one, but also how does anyone get anything done working from home? I think that's such an important question and I always love when that question comes up. I'm a father of three, my wife is pregnant, my wife's a stay-at-home mom. My house is constantly crazy. Probably unless we have a phenomenal editor, you're going to hear that baby screaming at some point in some of these questions. So my house is super chaotic and that question comes up a lot. How do I get anything done from home? The thing that... I actually think that it kind of ties into how you schedule your day.

Andrew Hanson:

So for me, I wake up because I don't have to commute because I don't have to wake right up, take a shower and get ready to go to a workplace. I wake up at six o'clock I grab a cup of coffee and I'm at my desk by 6:10, 6:15 and I'm working for an hour or two hours before my house is even awake. I'll tell you those are the most productive two hours of my entire day. And then usually around eight o'clock. I'm helping getting kids ready. I have one kid that I have to take to school, things happen. Then I'm usually back to my desk by 9:30 work until around noon, eat some lunch. But you structure your day how it works for you.

Andrew Hanson:

That again is one of the beautiful things about working from home. Within reason and depending on what your job is, if you're answering phone calls and things all day, you might not be able to structure quite the same way. But you could definitely wake up a little earlier and answer those emails you need to or write those couple documents you need to, so you don't have those things weighing down on you first thing when you come into the office. That's a beautiful thing about working from home. You do have this sense of autonomy. When I was working as a psychologist, a big thing we studied that motivated people, big three, autonomy, competence and relatedness.

Andrew Hanson:

Those three things are the most motivating things that anybody can have. When you're giving people the ability to structure their day in a way that works for them, you're giving them an incredible amount of autonomy.

Nicola Carpenter:

Yeah. So I am still very new to working from home and it's been a fun and interesting transition. I don't know if either of you watched the Netflix show, The Circle. But I reference it very frequently and basically the premise, if you don't know, is that there are a number of different people who are put into separate apartments and they're communicating with other people through a voice activated social network basically. And so the only communication they have is via text and it's very amusing. I find it charming and hilarious and just absurd in all the best ways. There's this one person in it named Seaburn who just... They show different clips of people just hanging out in the day. There's this one clip that Seaburn is just like sticking stickers to his face. I feel like there are some days when I'm working from home where I'm just finding random craft materials and just start playing with them, which is kind of silly, but I mean, I'm so used to doing so many tasks in an office that if I don't have things to do, I have to make them.

Nicola Carpenter:

There was one day when I was like, "Oh, I can't look at my computer anymore." But there's nothing to do in an office. So I just cleaned my windows. And so, I mean, my prom is going to be really clean now and so I feel like there will be a point when I'm more used to it, but I guess I just bring it up in that it is a transition and our brains don't really like change and it'll take some getting used to and I think that, that's fine and I think also recognizing that makes it a little bit easier. So just like, "Okay, how can I make this easier? I'll just have a little dance break or I'll do something that's not just sitting in one place so that I still get that kind of activity that I'm used to getting of walking around changing a light bulb or there's a leak or other random things that often happen in a physical office.

Tim Cynova:

Yeah. In the same way that organizations need to be intentional about introducing remote work arrangements, we as human beings should be more intentional about what those remote working arrangements look like because if you just go with the baseline, you're going to get up, not brush your teeth, walk in, sit down, work from 6:00 AM to 9:00 PM not having eaten anything, not interacted with... Just the inertia of it. If you're not giving thought to setting these things up, it could be quite bad if you possibly live by yourself or if the people you live with might be away for the day and you're working someplace else or going to school, but setting this thing up might have a negative impact on you as your health, your wellbeing, self-care.

Nicola Carpenter:

Now let's please all agree to brush your teeth and wash your hands. I was a little grossed out thinking of everyone just not brushing their teeth and just go on right in the work.

Tim Cynova:

No, I was going to make the connection to unlimited vacation days and what research has for unlimited vacation days, that people take fewer days and being more intentional about it.

Andrew Hanson:

I think that's interesting, because like what you were saying, there were people taking less days when you have more vacation days. People tend to work longer when they work from home. That's another reason why I find the question so interesting from managers, especially when they're like, "Well, how do I know if somebody is working?" If you look at the research, most people end up working longer hours. I am in no way forced to work the hours that I work, I generally most days... I mean, now take it like I'm taking kids to school, I'm bringing kids back home from school, so on and so forth. But it's not unusual for me to spend nine or 10 hours in a day to be working because I'm just here and I'm just doing my thing. And so I think the thread that we kind of weave throughout this entire thing is being intentional. And that's the companies have to be intentional, the managers have to be intentional and the people have to be intentional when you're working. It could easily-

Nicola Carpenter:

Yeah, I think that's a good point too of also what you perceive to be the issues might not be the issues. The issue probably isn't going to be that people aren't working enough. It might be that they're working too much and burning out. So I think that, that's another thing that we need to about, is the expectations that we all have surrounding remote work might be totally incorrect. I think we have to be willing to correct those assumptions if our assumptions are incorrect.

Andrew Hanson:

Absolutely.

Nicola Carpenter:

But one of my favorite tips that a friend gave me was to have a virtual commute, to have some sort of thing that you do at the start of the your day and at the end of your day to notate that your work is starting or ending. I have been working on my kitchen table, but I sit on a different side of it than the side that I eat on and I specifically set up my laptop with my laptop stand, my keyboard, my mouse, my notebook, and I set it all up. I then start my Workday. At the end of the workday, I put it all into a box and I do not see anything related to my work. Because I don't own, I don't... I mean, I live in the New York city area.

Nicola Carpenter:

I have a smallish apartment. I don't have space to have a dedicated desk just for working, but that is enough for me to kind of separate my workspace from my home space in a way that I'm not necessarily thinking about work when I'm eating dinner and watching The Circle. Although apparently I do think about work when I'm watching The Circle.

Andrew Hanson:

I like that you bring that up and that's something that's phenomenal for a lot of people is being able to really divide that time in your mind. I've been working remotely for a very long time. I still have a very hard time with that. And part of the reason is because even before I got into technology, at a very young age, I was very fortunate to have computers in my life. I am 100% a computer geek and I often not so jokingly say my hobbies are in the same place where I work. So I sit here in front of this computer and I work, and then this is the same place where I also like to do other things. I like to program my own things and build my own things. So sometimes I have a very hard time separating that and it's very difficult because then I'm in the same space for 12 or 14 hours a day.

Andrew Hanson:

So I haven't quite found a way to combat that yet. So even someone who's been doing this forever, it seems like, doesn't have it all figured out. But one of the things that I do that's very intentional is when I'm not in my office, I'm not working. If I'm downstairs having dinner with my family, I'm having dinner with my family. If we're watching TV, I'm not on my phone, we're watching TV. If we're outside of this house, I do not think about work. It is all about my kids and about my wife and about my family. That's at least one way that I can separate at least a little bit. When I figure the rest out, I'll let you know how I got there.

Nicola Carpenter:

So I went to this art event a few years ago and there was this art project where they were selling products and I ended up buying a pair of shoes. But before I could make that exchange, I had to sign this waiver that I would only ever wear that pair of shoes to work. It always has stressed me out because I'm like, "Well, does a commute count as work?" So I've never worn them. I mean, it's kind of silly, but I'm like, "Oh, when does work start? When does it not? What happens if I go to event after work? Do I have to change shoes?" But I'm kind of thinking about having these shoes be my work from home shoes because I have my slippers that are my house shoes and I have my outdoor shoes but I kind of want to try having my work shoes. I just changed-

Tim Cynova:

Mr. Rogers.

Nicola Carpenter:

Mr. Rogers. Yeah, exactly. I kind of love that and want to have something, some way of changing the work to not work.

Tim Cynova:

I think this is one of the other things that you can do, when you're working remote is sharing that. On our Slack channel, someone posted a couple of months ago, "Do you wear shoes and socks when you work from home?" A sincere question and the amount of new information and how people approach it, and, "I wear slippers, but only during these times of the year." Was really fascinating. Just one simple question posted there really opened up all these different ways of people approaching how they think about their home workspace in a similar way. When I put these slippers on, do we have a coworker who has work slippers? When they put the slippers on, they're working. When they take the slippers off, they're not working. They have to have those slippers on. So I think that's sort of a fun way, but also gets useful information for teams to connect, to see how everyone's doing and also learn different ways of approaching maybe how you want to think about your remote work.

Tim Cynova:

So let's transition to tools. We've mentioned a number of them as we've been talking. We'll post links in the episode description so people can go directly to that description and find out what the tools are that we're talking about. We had one question that came in that I want us to address first and then go to some of the other tools that we use for remote or virtual work. The question came from one of Nicola's friends asking, "What's a good remote desktop solution for Windows to Mac?" Does someone want to explain what that means and then let's answer it.

Andrew Hanson:

With all tools, the first thing I'll say is especially because we're talking about work, if you have an IT department, if you have people who work in IT, please ask them first. That would be the first thing that I would say. You might have security requirements that you're not aware of. You might have certain policies that are in place that you're not aware of that you're already in compliance with, because you're in an office, so please always check with your IT person. Nothing is more frustrating than when somebody tries to get around those things and in some ways not only frustrating, but it can also cost the company a lot of money. That's the first thing I'll say about tools.

Tim Cynova:

Andrew, when you say that though, when I worked for smaller arts organizations, I always hated that I was the person who worked with the computers and the message comes up like, "Contact your IT specialist. I don't know what to do about this thing that just popped up."

Nicola Carpenter:

Same.

Andrew Hanson:

Well, in that case there a much wider tech community you can go to. There are lots of great places to go to. That specific tool. I did a little bit of research. There's a lot of tools out there. There's a lot of different implementations of something called VNC, some better than others. I'm not going to speak on which ones are which. I don't really have a ton of experience with VNC. There's also go-to PC. There's a lot of tools out there that can do exactly what you're asking for. All it takes is just a little bit of research. If you're looking at GoToPC, go to news.google.com which is all the Google news type in GoToPC, see if there's any horrible news articles in the last three years, talking about a giant security breach they have or something really terrible that happened with them or any of the VNCs or anything like that. Really just spending 15, 20 minutes of research. You're going to find the tool that works for you. Almost every tool that's out there as far as remote tools with rare exception, are going to work across both Macs and PCs.

Nicola Carpenter:

GoToPC years ago, might be the first tool that I used to start working remote. I was traveling for work, and for those unfamiliar with the tool, you essentially have it open on your "work machine" and then you can access it through a portal, wherever you might be from your phone, from a tablet, from a laptop, but while you're moving it appears as though you're sitting in front of your desk using a tool like that. GoToMyPC is not the only one. It was the one that we used at the time, but it does allow you to access things that you might not be able to access. Although Andrew's advice about making sure that you inadvertently aren't exposing the organization over various networks to a myriad of threats while you do this on the open wifi network in wherever place you choose to be working. I know he has a lot of thoughts because both he and Nicola had been in various ways working on solutions for this. I wanted to throw that broad enough.

Andrew Hanson:

I feel like public wifi is an entire another podcast. The short of it I'll say is public wifi is generally pretty horrible and I wouldn't recommend using it for anything. I definitely wouldn't recommend you do your banking over it or anything like that. The general suggestion we give to people is, if you can't work from home, if you don't have good reliable internet and you have to be in a public place all the time, it's generally about the same cost to go to Verizon or AT&T and get... They call it MiFi which looks like a little... We always used to call them hockey pucks, a little hockey puck that lets you connect to a wifi network and then it goes over the cellular network. Generally speaking, I would recommend that over using public wifi.

Andrew Hanson:

There are other things you can do on public wifi. You can use VPNs, you can do other things. The simplest is just not to use public wifi. I'm not saying don't connect to it and look at Facebook, I'm saying don't connect to it and do your banking or look at highly classified documents because you work at some banking company.

Nicola Carpenter:

So there was one day when I was on the New York subway and there were two people talking about things that made me think I should maybe call the SEC or something. I mean, they were talking about super classified things and they were like, "Oh yeah. Did you hear about that person at some golf course talking about something?" "Yeah, we should go and do..." Whatever this thing because of what they said. I was like, "This feels illegal. And also why are you giving me all of this information on the subway?" So I feel like that should be obvious, but maybe just pay attention to also who is around you when you're having conversations or when someone's looking over your shoulder, even if you're not connecting to public wifi,

Andrew Hanson:

That's an absolutely phenomenal point. In security, we call that OPSEC, operational security. You need to be careful what you're saying, who you're saying it to, when you're saying it. I'm probably slightly over paranoid just because of the industry that I'm in. When I go into a Panera's or a Starbucks or something, I tend to find a seat that's against the wall, not close to a window. I don't like people looking at my screen, even if I'm not working on something super top secret. But yeah, these are all things to be mindful of, if you're going to be working in public. Again, intentional. The string of all of this, intentional. You have to be intentional with all of this.

Nicola Carpenter:

For those who might have flown and sat on an aisle, you can see someone who doesn't have a screen protector on 10 rows back. You can read what they're working on if they're there. So yes, there are technology tools. There's maybe "common sense". Don't talk about highly classified stuff in a crowded place and there are physical tools like MiFis and screen protectors that make it more challenging for people to read what's on your screen. Let's post the rest of them. We've talked about Slack, we've talked about Zoom and a myriad of other ones. I want to go with last thoughts or maybe not last thoughts closing thoughts on this topic for this podcast, especially recognizing these aren't your closing thoughts ever on this topic. Nicola, what are your closing thoughts on the topic of organizations introducing remote or virtual work arrangements?

Andrew Hanson:

I would say that if people are coming to the Work. Shouldn't. Suck. Podcast for this topic specifically, I think they should go and listen to all the rest of them and read the other things. Because, a lot of this stuff that we talk about in this podcast is relevant to making the transition to virtual work. I think that people might not necessarily draw that connection and I think that they should.

Tim Cynova:

Andrew thoughts.

Andrew Hanson:

As long as they're not my last thoughts ever, then I'll give you my thoughts.

Tim Cynova:

Yeah. Not your last thoughts ever.

Andrew Hanson:

I know. I think as I've said kind of throughout the podcast, intentionality. Just make sure you're very intentional about the things that you're doing, whether you're at the top of the food chain or the bottom, intentionality is the way to do this correctly. I think the other thing is to make sure you're always iterating. Make sure you're always making changes. Make sure you're open to making changes. I joke with my friends all the time that my wife hears me say I'm wrong probably more times than any husband has ever said it ever. I'm perfectly fine with being wrong all the time. We only learn by trying new things and by looking at new information. I think part of that comes from being a scientist. Scientists should be wrong all the time. Our theories are always changing and this is no different. We're navigating for a lot of people, uncharted waters, and it's okay to be wrong and it's okay to iterate and just keep moving forward. Don't take something small and leave that as a sign as the whole thing is a failure and should be abandoned.

Tim Cynova:

Terrific advice. Andrew. Nicola, thank you so much for sharing your expertise today and for being on the podcast.

Andrew Hanson:

Thank you. It's great to be here.

Nicola Carpenter:

Yes. It's fun.

Tim Cynova:

To close out this episode. It's again my pleasure to welcome back to the show, podcasting's favorite cohost, Lauren Ruffin. Hey Lauren, how's it going?

Lauren Ruffin:

Hey, it is a rainy morning in Albuquerque, which is rare and my voice hasn't changed yet, thanks to daylight savings time. So hopefully I'll be a little bit more chipper as our conversation goes. Guaranteed, because this is a dope conversation, but the voice is really something right now.

Tim Cynova:

We have a special returning guest on the show today, our fellow co-CEO and Chief Technology Officer at Fractured Atlas, Shawn Anderson. Shawn, how's it going today?

Shawn Anderson:

Hanging in there. I'm in Denver. It's not that far from Albuquerque, but it's sunny and nice here.

Lauren Ruffin:

Dang! Shawn. That is brutal.

Shawn Anderson:

I can't complain.

Lauren Ruffin:

Dang! Early in the morning, a knife to the gut.

Tim Cynova:

So this episode is all about remote work. Something many organizations have been giving serious thought to, especially in light of the spread of COVID-19. Both of you have extensive experience working and managing remote teams. Sean, for nearly the entirety of your career, I imagine you've only worked that way virtually and remotely. With that in mind and with your CTO hat on, what advice do you have for organizations now wrestling with how to quickly implement these types of arrangements?

Shawn Anderson:

Well, first of all, don't be too afraid. The consequences for not finding a way to allow your workforce to engage remotely is probably greater than letting them work from home. It's really important to get tooling in place as soon as possible. I certainly recommend using video communications over the phone or trying to rely on email. Those are both notorious for horrible lag time, feeling very disconnected. Video really does help get over a lot of the bumps that you would experience with managing a remote workforce.

Tim Cynova:

At Fractured Atlas, we use zoom. We've used BlueJeans, we've used Skype in certain situations. We used to use whatever Google had-

Lauren Ruffin:

Hangouts.

Tim Cynova:

Google Hangouts.

Lauren Ruffin:

People still use that.

Shawn Anderson:

My least favorite of the bunch, but yeah.

Lauren Ruffin:

Yeah, mine too. My computer doesn't let me use Google Hangouts. It's pretty finicky. So we use Slack as a messaging tool. We used to use Flowdock and there's a built-in function though in Slack that allows you to hop onto video lines as well, right?

Shawn Anderson:

Yes. So Slack has integrated video and it also has integrations with tools like Zoom that you can launch off into your own Zoom channel at any time. I think those things are all great, but you really just have to get whatever the low hanging fruit is for your particular company or organization. So if you're already in the Microsoft ecosystem, go ahead and lean into Skype, lean into Skype for business, look at those kinds of tools. If this is something that you haven't really done anything with at all, I would suggest checking out. Even though I'm not a big fan of Google Hangouts, it's free and it's fairly simple to start rolling that out to your teams. But if you can't afford to pay, we've definitely found Zoom to be a really good platform. It's fully featured, it's very easy for people to get it installed on their systems and I think that's really the way to go.

Tim Cynova:

One of the things we haven't mentioned yet on this podcast, I know we have a number of people who work with nonprofits who are looking for the free or inexpensive options. Oftentimes companies provide nonprofit discounts for some of the subscription services available. So it's always worth asking.

Shawn Anderson:

For sure. That's kind of our built in first request to any vendor that we work with across the board. So whether it's a communications platform or just any kind of software license, it's like a knee jerk. "Hey, we're a nonprofit. What kind of nonprofit rates do you offer?" You'll find that sometimes you'll even get stuff for free. So Slack, we get an organization level membership entirely for free, which is fantastic. Thank you Slack. For Zoom, without any nonprofit discount you can get, I think it's 40 or 45 minutes per session for free. So you can just try it out. Worst case scenario, you just hop right back in to the room again. But they also do provide nonprofit discounts. I can't recall what the percentage is, but it's a fairly healthy percentage.

Tim Cynova:

Or maybe your meeting doesn't need to be longer than 40 or 45 minutes and Zoom tells you that.

Lauren Ruffin:

Yeah, exactly.

Tim Cynova:

It's like, "You're done having this conversation."

Lauren Ruffin:

Yeah. That's my philosophy. 45 minutes max.

Shawn Anderson:

It's a great built in reminder. We've actually done that a few times where we've scheduled meetings to be 40 to 45 minutes instead of the full hour to prevent the lengthening of meetings. I don't know. I've just seen this tendency that if you schedule an hour, it's an hour and five an hour and 10 minutes. If you're seeing that tendency within your company, schedule 45 minute long meetings if you want to make sure that you get done in under an hour.

Tim Cynova:

Well, Lauren, we talked about earlier in the podcast, a lot of the intentionality that goes into how we work and how we need to work differently when it's remote or virtual than if we were just all in the same place. Both of you have managed completely virtual teams. You're a co-CEOs of an entirely virtual organization. I'm curious, Lauren, why don't you start, how do you structure team interactions? What does that actually look like and how might it be different than if everyone were in the same space?

Lauren Ruffin:

There's a mind shift that happens when you have employees who occasionally work from home to really being intentional about implementing sort of remote work practices, that I think those are totally different philosophies. Mostly because, and we've spoken about this on the podcast and I know that you chatted about it with our other guests, but to me it's important that everyone's having the same experience professionally. And so I found it particularly hard being the only non-engineer working remote at Fractured Atlas. It wasn't even that the systems weren't there, it was that the culture hadn't shifted 100%. But I know the engineering team really felt that as well. But I manage my team remotely the same way I would manage them if we were all in the office. That's just about maintaining fidelity to whatever model you set up as a manager.

Lauren Ruffin:

So we do stand-ups in the morning. They should be no longer than 15 minutes. Sometimes we do a little water cooler talk on Mondays and Fridays in particular, but we're in and out just sharing what we're doing during our day. And then we do our team meeting midway through the week and that lasts usually anywhere from 30 minutes to an hour. But all the processes are the same for everybody on the team. And we always end up talking about trust and to me, trust starts with hiring. Hire people who want to do the job. But the shifting point for my team, we had people who we hired who were in the office five days a week and I think at one point it was pretty much only my team and Tim and Nicola were in the office five days a week at that point.

Lauren Ruffin:

Shifting to being virtual really had an impact on one of my staff members for sure. She couldn't handle it, which is great and I completely support her self-awareness around knowing that remote work wasn't for her and deciding to leave the team. But mostly it's about making sure everyone has the same experience, which is what you want to do as a manager anyway.

Shawn Anderson:

Yeah, Lauren. Building on that, this idea of blending onsite and remote staff I think presents some of the largest challenges. We've had tons of meetings at Fractured Atlas, over the years where you have a conference room full of 10 to 30 people and then a number of people, maybe another 10 to 15 people coming in through a screen. That is the least ideal way to have remote work ongoing. I've heard anecdotally from other people as well that you end up with these separate cultures. That you have your online culture and then you have your onsite culture and that is a recipe for stress and strain within the organization and I feel like this outbreak that we're going through, it's an opportunity to lean in and try to set up something that allows remote work to flourish across a larger swath of the organization and just raising awareness here that if you think you're just going to have five people working from home and 25 people in an office, there's going to be struggles. There's going to be problems in maintaining consistency across your whole team.

Lauren Ruffin:

Yeah, I mean there's nothing dorkier than when you're on video and people are in the conference room. Somebody says something funny, everybody's laughing. You're like, "Oh, what happened? What are they saying?" And then they're like, "Oh." You just miss stuff.

Andrew Hanson:

You had to be there.

Lauren Ruffin:

Yeah. I'm like, "But I am here. I'm still a person." It's so awkward.

Tim Cynova:

Which is likely why I think when organizations are experimenting with this a little bit here, but everyone else really isn't in person, they're having such a bad experience with it. "We tried that once and it didn't work." Type of thing. Rather than virtual first. Everyone does it. It equalizes the experience and we figure it out together and we figured out what's necessary for us to do on Zoom, necessary for us to do in email, when do we really need to meet in person, but this one foot on one side, one foot in the other, creates this place where it never works out great for the people who are not in the physical room because of those things. When you laugh it overloads the microphone so you can't even hear the followup. You just know people are laughing and you're missing something and you just have to sit there until it's done and then hop back into the meeting.

Shawn Anderson:

One of the things we've tried at Fractured Atlas that I think works to a certain extent, even staff in the office can come to the meetings through a screen. You do have to watch out for having people sitting right next to each other because you'll experience what latency there is, as you hear someone in real time in one year and then you hear them coming to the speakers on the other side. But aside from that, it's a good way to try to go virtual first even if you don't have everybody literally working from home.

Lauren Ruffin:

I do think that one of the things that has surprised me in the last couple of years as 10 people have reached out to us to explore going remote has been the idea that I think people overestimate the value they're getting by being face-to-face. I like people well enough, not a whole lot but for the most part I've been fortunate but I find the being in the same space means that people lack boundaries and getting work done in the office is really hard, especially when you're in a managerial position, people need your time a lot, so you can't really structure it or set boundaries and it becomes really informal, which can be really distracting.

Lauren Ruffin:

I just keep thinking about just sort of the experience people have with commuting. Instead of being like, you're not getting face time. Imagine a world without traffic. Imagine what your employees would be like if they could just be in the office in two minutes when they walk to wherever their designated home office is and especially in cities like LA and New York where the commute is just even on a good non-pandemic day, the commute is just so hard. And then you're getting there. They have to shake off their commute. Working despite the time it takes to get to the office is really just, I don't know, I just think there's so many opportunities to going remote in addition to just the savings and overhead for once you hit a certain size organization like you do experience a return on the value is pretty significant.

Shawn Anderson:

Often people express concern over, "How do I know what my people are doing? How do I know that they're being efficient?" I always say, "You think they're being efficient in the office. There's so much wasted time." To Lauren's point. That shouldn't be your biggest concern. It's just human nature. People are going to find ways to waste time wherever they are and I've found more often than not that when you allow people the freedom to start working from home, they are more committed to making sure that they're getting the work done, that they're being efficient in their process, that they're staying in touch with people around the organization and then yeah, Lauren, you're right. The commute thing. I lived in New York for a long time. I spent three hours a day going back and forth just to get to high school. That's a lot of time that your employees have to spend and it's kind of passive time that's wasted that they perceive as part of their work day.

Tim Cynova:

Well, and I think there is the issue if you're in an office, "Oh I can just walk over and say this to this person." Without giving thought, "Do I need to walk over there right now? Is what I'm going over to interrupt them with, really important?" And when you're virtual you have to give some of that thought. There's a couple more hurdles before you could just talk to Sean on a video. From a managerial standpoint though, I think it's sort of the flip side. How do you make sure that people who are on your team know that they can come to you? What kind of conversations do you have so that people just aren't struggling for four days but that they feel like it's not a big hurdle for them to ping you if they get stuck on something?

Tim Cynova:

What does that look like on your teams? We all have logistically it a team Slack channel for our specific departments. We can do one-on-one Slack exchanges. We have a full staff Slack if we need to talk that way. We have weekly check-ins like Lauren was saying that, are there stand-up? Also one-on-one team. What does it look like more managerial and guidance for people who might need a little more virtual assistance.

Shawn Anderson:

So on engineering, we do daily stand-ups but we don't actually do them in a meeting format. We do them posted as a bulleted list in Slack and one of the things that I watch out for is people not posting their stand-ups. What's going on? Why are you distracted? What can I help you with? Because a lot of the time it's not them forgetting per se. That's an indication that they may even be overwhelmed. On the other side of the stand-ups though, you can look out for people who are posting the same thing over multiple days, which suggests they are stuck and if they're not reaching out and asking about it, it's an opportunity and an indication that you need to reach out to them, which I will almost always do in a direct message.

Shawn Anderson:

So you want to be careful about how your communications as a manager are perceived by the rest of the team when it may be leading to a conversation that is a little bit more challenging or a little bit more personal in nature. But I use those kinds of things to know when is it time to reach out. And then the other thing that I have in place is every two weeks I do have an in person, but virtually, an in person meeting with every member of my team and they are encouraged to write the agenda. This is your time, not my time. Since you're not seeing people in the in-between times, you need to be super intentional about giving them the opportunity to reach out and telling you about what is going on that might be impacting their work? What is going on that might be impacting them personally? And that really helps to keep them connected.

Lauren Ruffin:

Shawn that raises something I hadn't thought about around the difference in providing feedback in an office environment and providing feedback virtually. Because when I worked in an office, open-door policy, there was a signal that happened, if someone was talking in my office with the door closed for a while. There's a social signaling around the entire team knows this person is struggling, they're having a conversation with their manager or how you provide feedback face-to-face versus how you provide feedback virtually.

Lauren Ruffin:

Perception shifts in remote environments because people don't see all the conversations happening in an office environment, even if someone's not privy to the conversation, they see the conversation happening. One of the things I try to do is I'm intentional about when someone needs motivational feedback. Doing that in a full... Picking out when to do that. Whether it's when we're all in-person on Zoom. Sorry, I'm using Zoom as in-person, but when we're all on video as opposed to doing it in our Slack channel as opposed to doing it in a private message.

Lauren Ruffin:

All of those things do require a little bit more thought once you get to the point where you have a team member who is struggling and you need to let everyone else on the team know that you're aware of it, the signaling looks a little bit different than it does when you're working in the same space.

Shawn Anderson:

Yeah, it's hidden. You won't see it. You're right. That's one of the contrasts of working remotely.

Lauren Ruffin:

I guess what I'm saying is I tend to keep everything either in our weekly team meeting or in our... "You didn't do your time sheet." I don't make that a private message. I do that in our department team Slack channel because I think it's important. I think that when feedback happens or things that are shared that shouldn't be known by the entire team, it's usually the staff member reaching out to me one-to-one as opposed to me initiating a one-to-one conversation. I actually try to keep my one-to-ones pretty minimal.

Shawn Anderson:

My scheduled one-on-ones are really short. So they tend to last 15 to 30 minutes. I offer very often, "Hey, if you have nothing and I have nothing, we can skip it."

Lauren Ruffin:

Oh yeah, no. I'm like, "This is your time. If you don't need it, I'm happy to give it back. I am good to go."

Shawn Anderson:

As far as the critical feedback out in the open or private, I think this might be a place where we differ. I tend to subscribe to the idea that you celebrate accomplishments in public and then you provide critical feedback mostly in private. Sometimes however, let's say I was seeing something in a couple team members, let's go back to those stand-ups. Not posting the stand-ups or the quality of the stand-ups diminishing. That is something that I might address in a team meeting or in our engineering Slack channel or say, "Hey everyone, stand-ups, mandatory enough detail so that anybody could read this and understand what you're doing." And then I would follow up with the individuals to say, "Yeah, that was you and I hope you knew it." And if they didn't know it, that leads to a whole other set of conversations.

Tim Cynova:

Well, I think the defaulting as much as possible to open in a channel even if it might not involve everyone. Let's just talk about work in general. If you're posting about this thing we're working on, the annual appeal and you're posting with what could be a one-on-one conversation, but in the channel the team has more context for what's going on, who's working on what, and it can be done one-on-one, but probably more useful, especially because everyone's remote from each other to have this all in one place. I also would say, I think we also all differ or I differ from the two of you on check-ins. If you don't have anything to talk about, I still want to talk to you. It doesn't have to be as long, but this is also one of the opportunities to do the social check-in. The general question, how's it going? And just let someone go from there often yields things that... It didn't rise to the level of agenda item perhaps, but actually should be an agenda item to talk about whatever it is that sort of comes from that.

Lauren Ruffin:

Tim, does your team do daily stand-ups?

Tim Cynova:

We don't do daily stand-ups.

Lauren Ruffin:

Yeah. A lot of my social stuff happens during stand-up. I do check-ins on Mondays, but my check-ins yesterday were totally social. So I get that, but I wonder what my team would look like without a daily stand-up. Now that's an interesting thought. I think they hold me accountable. I need stand-ups. I don't know if the team does, but I need them.

Andrew Hanson:

If you're in an office, you have that natural... You're going to see people. You get a sense of where things are. I think in the remote working environment, some kind of stand-up is pretty much required. You need these reminders, stay connected, stay connected to your team. As a manager keep on top of the way people are feeling and operating. I'm sure there's other ways, but stand-ups of all kinds are just a really simple way to make sure that you're staying connected.

Lauren Ruffin:

I also, in my sort of paranoid brain, you got to know people are alive. If you're working with people who live by themselves, who work remote, if they just start showing up the stand-up, it's like, "Are you dead in your apartment?"

Tim Cynova:

Not dead in apartments. But we have had instances where we've had to call emergency contacts because we haven't heard from someone. We've texted them, we've Slacked them and yeah, it does become posting a message in the morning or so when you start working, so everyone knows you're online and sometimes things happen and that's the way you find out about them. God, though to go straight to someone's dead in their apartment, Lauren that's like-

Lauren Ruffin:

well, I guess I think about it like... I had a cold a couple of weeks ago and I had this really bad coughing episode on my oatmeal, like an old person, and the first thing I thought was like, "I'm going to choke to death here in my house and nobody's going to find me until four o'clock. It's like nine o'clock in the morning. There's nobody who would think twice about it. Just me and my house till pour little Enzo gets home."

Tim Cynova:

Oh my God.

Lauren Ruffin:

I think a question that I would have for Shawn is, do you need a dedicated sort of tech specialists, for lack of a better word, to be able to implement remote policies?

Shawn Anderson:

Oh, that is a good question.

Lauren Ruffin:

Or can the relative lay person figure it out?

Shawn Anderson:

I would like to think that the lay person could figure it out, but I think the path to really effectively implementing a remote work policy, all of the remote work procedures, you are much better off having someone with knowledge of all of these tools to get you going. Otherwise, you're going to bump into things that you'd be better off avoiding and you're going to quickly sour, I think on both sides of the equation. On the management side as well as on the employees side. We're going to feel like, "Oh, this isn't for us. I guess we're just going to have to all get infected with COVID-19 and deal with it." If you want to get to the end in a shortcut fashion, I think you need to work with someone who's the tech on their side.

Lauren Ruffin:

I mean to be clear, I think what we're all saying is either you do the remote thing or you don't do it, but-

Shawn Anderson:

Correct.

Lauren Ruffin:

The worst thing you could do is kind of that. If you want to work from home, you can for a long period of time. We either do it or don't.

Shawn Anderson:

Yeah, for sure. I mean, it's like Mr. Miyagi said, "Walk left side, safe. Walk right side, think. Walk middle of the road sooner or later, squish like a grape."

Lauren Ruffin:

You said Mr. Miyagi and I was like, "Mr. Miyagi didn't say shit will get off the pot. It's like, he didn't say. That's what I was thinking.

Shawn Anderson:

I know. I mean I have a love for the karate kid. I don't know why. I think it's because I grew up with it, but I always think of him saying that because it's totally true. Whenever you do something in that halfway state, you're taking on the risks from both sides. So you're better off fully committing to a strategy that works than doing half measures.

Tim Cynova:

Shawn, before we say goodbye to you in this episode, what are your closing thoughts on the topic?

Shawn Anderson:

I think remote work is work. I don't actually think it differs all that much from what people are generally used to. I think there's a ton of benefits to the people who have families, to the people who are looking to not get sick, to the people who are trying to find a way to stay engaged if they potentially feel sick. I just don't think it's something to be feared. I think this is something to be embraced. I think what we're going through right now as a country and a world is just a reminder that there are ways to stay connected that don't require us all to spend an hour in the car, in a train and then eight hours a day in an office.

Tim Cynova:

Shawn, thanks so much for spending some of your time with us this morning. I always end our video meetings by saying something like, "See you online." Of course, we already are online. So we'll see you online in different ways.

Shawn Anderson:

Thanks Tim. Thanks Lauren.

Tim Cynova:

So Lauren, we're talking remote work. We work in the cultural sector for the most part, a sector largely built on bringing people together in community to engage in experiences. One of those experiences is the annual South by Southwest Conference or convention in Austin that was announced late last week that it was going to be canceled. You wearing your Crux hat and your Fractured Atlas hat. We were on several panels. You had several events that you were producing. What's the update on that? What's going on?

Lauren Ruffin:

Well, I'm still going to Austin. Austin's a fun city. Whether there's something happening or not, it's like this year it's the not. But what is happening is so for South by, I partnered with an organization called Zebras Unite. Zebras unite is becoming pretty well known really around finding alternative capital vehicles for underrepresented entrepreneurs. So we were going to participate in a round-table and a series of discussions with them. That's all going to happen online now. So we'll all be in a venue together. Having these conversations, bringing people in from around the country, around the world, we just won't be all in the same place as planned. The reality is between Fractured Atlas and Crux and time and pulling people together.

Lauren Ruffin:

This is sort of at the nexus of about not as much money as some people, but still five or six grand, which had they canceled the festival a day earlier from everything I've seen in people I've called to beg to plead to get this money back, if they had done it a day earlier, I would have been able to recoup a fair amount of all of those funds at the seven day policy. But it's sort of the way they chose to cancel it means that I'm out of that money. But I've been thinking a lot about the idea of how do you ethically cancel a large event? What are the ethics involved and how do you bring partners into the conversation?

Lauren Ruffin:

It's clear that the city of Austin and the festival that South by did not come to an agreement. And so what ended up happening is the people who were attending are suffering. I think figuring out ethical cancellations isn't just about a pandemic in the `Rona. It's really about how the world is shifting. Climate change is real. We're going to see more and more events happening, especially on coast that are going to be canceled. So how do you do that in a way that doesn't... How do you have virtual opportunities anyway for everything you're doing? So it's easy to shift people into virtual spaces. How do you have those contingency plans? Hurricanes are real earthquake surreal. If you're doing something in Phoenix in the summer, being 115 degrees is real. So I just keep thinking about what do the ethical practices look like in event management and I think that the conversation has to advance beyond where we are today. The only upside to this is I think it's forcing a lot of conversations that we need to have anyway.

Tim Cynova:

Yeah, a lot of things that were not possible or "weren't possible" are all of a sudden possible because of this. I enjoy the pre-mortem exercise when you're starting something. I find it sort of a really fun and fascinating exercise to go through for those who might not be familiar. A pre-mortem is after you've come up with your plans for something and they're going to be wildly successful and everyone's going to love it and it's going to make a lot of money, you do a pre-mortem about what happens when that thing that you're so excited about is going to end in tears and ashes and then you list all of those things and he'd go one by one to, if that thing happens, we will put them in order, what's most likely to happen... But then you go one by one and say, if that thing happens, this is how we're going to respond. And then you essentially put it in your back pocket.

Tim Cynova:

If that thing does happen, you're much more prepared with what happens if an earthquake hits this area during our conference, a day before our conference, whatever it might be. And so I think yeah, ethical responsibility around convening people is something that needs to be at the top of that list.

Lauren Ruffin:

It really isn't. Planning a convening at the end of September at Albuquerque, well outside of Albuquerque, and I'm thinking top of mind wildfires and what follows is normally a beautiful time, in New Mexico. It will be around the river, gorgeous resort. But I'm like, "What if there's a wildfire?" Or, "What if there's a wildfire and it's windy, which happens here." So it's going to be like, it was during SOCAP a couple of years ago with the fires in Northern California where there was just ash blowing over, blowing across the bay into where SOCAP's held. And then just heat. It's normally beautiful in September here. But what if this year it ends up being super hot and the space that we have on the resort is an eight to 10 minute walk. Can I ask everybody from the conference to do that walk? They do have shuttle buses, but again how do you prepare for those things and how do you start just thinking about them way ahead of time?

Tim Cynova:

Yeah. Thinking about everyone who wants to be a part of that convening and is it truly open and available to everyone and what might be prohibitive and how can we remove some of those barriers so that it's as inclusive as possible? No, just I would say inclusive period not as possible. Because I think a lot of people were like, "It's inclusive as possible, right now."

Lauren Ruffin:

But I think that just raises a larger conversation about physical spaces. We and I mean we, people writ large and I think the arts sector is one of those sectors that is particularly beholden to physical spaces on either coast. I had a conversation with someone a couple of years ago who was raising a ton of money for a physical space in a very vulnerable city. I kept thinking those hundreds of millions dollars could be repurposed and I said this because I'm crass. I was like, "Do you ever worry raising all this money for this thing that like could be gone with a couple of hard shakes of the earth?" And they were like, "Yeah, I do think about that, but this is what we're going to do."

Lauren Ruffin:

I kept thinking like if he were to spend that money doing a really, really great virtual version of the thing that you want to do, it can be accessed by so many more people and really pushed technology and really you could build something that could last forever. But our continued reliance on physical spaces and the work that it takes to maintain a large physical plant for performances, for art shows as museums and everything else, to me it's wasteful. I mean for lack of a better... I mean, it's legit wasteful.

Tim Cynova:

With your Crux hat on the virtual reality, augmented reality as it applies to convenings, you mentioned the Zebras Unite partnership that you have is going virtual. Who's doing this really well? Who might be pairing these new technologies with virtual convenings to use as a case study for how might one do something that's not "old-school conference, old-school convention."

Lauren Ruffin:

Everything about my life is spent between sort of industries and organizations that I really love that I have a lot of work to do, structurally. The VR/AR space is no different. So AltspaceVR is a convening space online that people often use to have meetings, put on a headset. I love everything about immersive storytelling and I have a hard time spending more than 10 or 12 minutes at a time in a headset. So the hardware has to improve. But I mean, I think some of those are great, but I also... We've done lots of cool things just with Zoom. You can do breakout rooms, you can do small... You can bring people together, you can sort of sort folks into different rooms. That's not super hard to do once you figure it out. So there are a couple of conferences that I understand.

Lauren Ruffin:

So I believe E3 is being canceled today, which is huge. GDC is on the bubble. Actually GDC might canceled. Actually, I'm not sure. So both of these are huge gaming and online entertainment conferences. My understanding is that E3 is doing something online. I haven't checked Twitter yet this morning, but when I went to bed last night, the rumor was that E3 was being canceled today. So I think we're going to have to figure this out really quickly. And the good thing is you have people who are really sophisticated technologists who are now in this conversation. I think that what today seems like a, "How are we going to do this situation?" Is in three months going to be, "This is how you do it." I think we have people who are quickly blazing the trails on that.

Tim Cynova:

You brought up how long you could wear a VR headset and it reminded me of the Zoom meeting coefficient of the two to one. For those who have spent any time in Zoom, it's twice as tiring as a meeting that's done in person. It just takes a different attention. So if you have a two hour meeting in person that's going to feel like a four hour meeting and you need to be cognizant of that, to build on breaks and ways to let people just decompress.

Lauren Ruffin:

You're spot on. And I say this as someone who is difficult to meet with.

Tim Cynova:

I've worked with you for a number of years, Lauren.

Lauren Ruffin:

I think the last time we were together I was like, "Where else am I going to work where I can essentially spend hours walking in circles around the room and nobody thinks I'm a total nerd?" But the other thing I was thinking about is, how much easier it is to do everything with people. You've met in person or you spent a lot of time with. I was thinking, what if Zoom went down and the four of us had to do tacticals by phone? I could do a tactical with you. We could probably do a tactical on the phone. But there are... Look I've lost the skill of phone conferencing. Remember when you used to... I remember being a lobbyist and it would be like a weekly call with X client and there'd be 30 consultants on the call, which seems like a nightmare now.

Tim Cynova:

So yeah, still do that with law firms. That's like the last remaining convening that is almost always on audio only and then it becomes, even with three people, you're stepping on each other and half the meeting is just crosstalk.

Lauren Ruffin:

When I was in high school, I used to frequently do a three way call and then the connecting chain, there would be a whole bunch of us on the phone and we could do it. And I'm like, "How have I lost the skill?"

Tim Cynova:

You've developed other skills, [crosstalk 01:21:00].

Lauren Ruffin:

We hope that I've developed other skills since then.

Tim Cynova:

I totally forgot about the chain calls like that.

Lauren Ruffin:

But now being on the phone with any more than one person is a real challenge and so I say that to say, it takes a while to get accustomed to being on video. It's always easier being on video. People you really know that I think holds true for anything. It's hard having dinner with somebody you barely know. It's not like video is immediately easy. You have to get good at it and you have to get to know the person on the other end. It's interesting times. I'm such a fan of... I'm a total convert, I'm such a fan of remote work now.

Tim Cynova:

I was not.

Lauren Ruffin:

I know, I remember those conversations. You and Pallavi were the holdouts. Shawn and I were like, "Do it now."

Tim Cynova:

There's clearly a lot of benefit to it. My holdout was, I feel like we're losing something as human beings in not being in a physical space together. And we are, but you also gain other things.

Lauren Ruffin:

Germs.

Tim Cynova:

Yes, exactly. We're losing-

Lauren Ruffin:

Losing out on germs.

Tim Cynova:

Germ transmission. Yes. We lost on that one.

Lauren Ruffin:

Office gossip. I think that's the culture.

Tim Cynova:

We're losing positives and negatives, but we also gain in other things that I think you don't, in having that. Having seen what those things are and how people can change the way they want to live and work. I've increasingly been a convert to, this is how you can work, even if it's not the entire organization needs to go vertical, but having an intentional plan that's set up or intentional structure that's set up to be able to work this way and for everyone to be able to work that way and understand what that's like. This is a skill that almost everyone in the 21st century needs to have in order to be effective or productive as just a coworker.

Lauren Ruffin:

Yeah, I think you're so right and I'm really excited in the summer months... Well, one, I love working from home in the summer. It's fantastic. You can sit outside, you can sort of be in your best self. But in the winter time, one of the things I always hated about working in an office was I would get to the office when it was dark and I would leave when it was dark. And so if I wanted to run outside, if I wanted... I was walking the dog and the dogs are dark. I felt like I never saw the sunlight. And just being able to step outside or spend in Albuquerque, it warms up so much the middle of the day.

Lauren Ruffin:

If I was in an office all winter long when I knew it was going to be dark, but there was gonna be this beautiful 90 minutes where it was 55 or 60 degrees in November or December. But being able to just see that and get outside and experience it and work out there and breathe some fresh air is transformational. I'm so excited for you because once your foot heals-

Tim Cynova:

That's all right.

Lauren Ruffin:

I don't know if we've told our listeners that you snapped your ankle.

Tim Cynova:

Yeah, I came back with some really cool Canadian souvenirs in the form of a handful of surgical screws. Yeah.

Lauren Ruffin:

But once that's over, you're going to be able to ride your bike in the middle of day.

Tim Cynova:

Yeah, you're right. And that will be the subject for a future episode conversation where we talk about guilt that comes from taking time during the day to do something possibly even when you're working.

Lauren Ruffin:

No, that guilt. I shut that Catholicism I was raised in. I no longer experience guilt.

Tim Cynova:

I mean, I think that's though... We talked about this earlier in the podcast with Andrew and Nicola. When people work from home, they tend to work longer hours than they would if they went into the office because they don't have an easier or clear delineation of start, stop. And then if you are working say eight or nine hours that you typically would, but you start earlier and later you might initially feel guilty to say, I'm taking two hours to go work out at the gym, walk around, stare at the sun, breathe fresh air, and then I'm going to come back. And there's a hurdle that a lot of people need to address.

Lauren Ruffin:

I feel it in particular living with children. They get home from school and I'm still working and then it's like, "What are you doing?" I'm like, "Working." "Well, you were working when we left." I was like, "Yeah, I was working when you left." And then it's like, "We're going to bed. What are you doing?" "I got my laptop, I'm working." But what I've been trying to do is... It wasn't my own idea. I can't take credit for it, was putting the laptop away at six o'clock.

Tim Cynova:

I love that Nicola puts her work laptop and materials into a physical box and then puts them someplace else so that in a small apartment she doesn't just sit down for a quick email, but it's physically in a different place.

Lauren Ruffin:

But in particular working on East Coast Time, there are days where I start working at 6:00 AM by time and you all have gone home, but it's still, my brain's still on my work hours, so I look up and it's the only thing that stops me is that I have to fix dinner for somebody.

Tim Cynova:

I think that's one of the challenges in that, when you do work with people across time zones, for instance, I do my best work in the morning if we're accommodating an 8:00 AM Eastern time meeting, because we have people, our colleague Pallavi lives in India, and so there's only a couple points during the day where we can have a meeting. I start my day in a different way, and then it rolls right into just the regular workday and meetings. And then some people work until 7:00 or 8:00 PM Eastern time. And you could stretch your day from 8:00 to 8:00 and not still have that personal time that you typically would because it becomes the other type of work, not the solo thinking ideating, if that's still a word part of your day. It shouldn't be a word if it still is.

Lauren Ruffin:

And Pallavi usually hops back on. I go to bed pretty early, so I'm climbing into my bed at 8:30, and Pallavi is hopping on at 8:30 PM, so it's 10:30 PM your time. So it's like, "Well, let me start Pallavi's day by responding to these things and end my day by responding to these things." On the whole I'll take that as opposed to the alternative, which is working in an office from 9:00 to 5:00 and then still bringing work home with me, which is really terrible.

Tim Cynova:

Well Lauren, we have covered a lot of ground and a lot of different topics related to the overarching remote work conversation. What are your closing thoughts on the topic for this episode?

Lauren Ruffin:

I think there are just so many benefits to doing it and I think it's something that allows you to future proof your organization. One of the things I've been thinking about in the last week is as I get emails from various cities, state governments, organizations, everyone else, we haven't really had to send an email out to our staff at all. This has not impacted our work. It's not... I mean, I'm sure our staff are feeling it, but what we've done is we've liberated our staff to figure out what to they want to make in their lives and the one thing they don't have to figure out is how they're going to work, which I think is just so I feel really fortunate as a manager to not have to be navigating these things on the fly.

Lauren Ruffin:

The only thing we know to be true is this isn't the last time we're going to have to figure this stuff out. So I would encourage every organization who's really feeling it in a pinch right now to figure it out now. Commit to figuring it out, so that if we're talking about months of this conversation or if we're just talking about this becoming an annual conversation, which is what's most likely is that this is going to be like a really, really bad freaking flu every year. You got to figure this stuff out,

Tim Cynova:

Lauren, it's always a pleasure starting my day chatting with you. I hope you have a wonderful rest of the day and a great week.

Lauren Ruffin:

You too, Tim.

Tim Cynova:

If you've enjoyed the conversation or you're just feeling generous today, please consider writing a review on iTunes so that others who might be interested in the topic can join the fun too. Give it a thumbs up or five stars or phone a friend, whatever your podcasting platform of choice offers. If you didn't enjoy this chat, please tell someone about it who you don't like as much. Until next time, thanks for listening.

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The Behavior Dashboard (EP.10)

Last Updated

March 6, 2020

What behaviors differentiate a Director from a Senior Director? What traits does a CEO need to demonstrate to be successful in their role that are similar or different from what an Admin Assistant needs? On this episode we're talking tools, specifically one called The Behavior Dashboard.

Guests: Pallavi Sharma & Jillian Wright

Co-Host: Tim Cynova

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Guests

PALLAVI SHARMA currently serves as the Chief Program Officer of Fractured Atlas where she oversees the team responsible for program strategy and growth, product development, customer service, and R&D. Prior to joining Fractured Atlas, Pallavi was a full-time consultant helping nonprofit organizations and women entrepreneurs develop strategies, streamline operations, improve team effectiveness, and market themselves successfully. Her previous roles were varied and global, including working at large organizations like 1800Flowers.com and Everyday Health Inc., to startups funded by Goldman Sachs, as well as an early stint in the luxury retail industry in India. After her 16+ years in the corporate sector, Pallavi is excited to transition her skills and experience to follow her passion for the nonprofit space. Pallavi is a voracious reader, an aspiring writer and a lover of all things in nature – plants, animals, even bugs. Pallavi completed her MBA from IIM, Bangalore India and holds a Bachelor’s degree with triple majors in Psychology, English Literature and Journalism.

JILLIAN WRIGHT is currently the Senior Director, People Operations & Controller at Fractured Atlas, an organization she joined in 2010. As Controller, she manages and oversees all financial procedures and policies for the organization, as well as supervises compliance reporting including the annual organizational audit. As a member of the People Team, Jillian manages the company payroll and benefits, and assists in the organization's strategic HR efforts. Prior to Fractured Atlas, she worked in arts management and accounting for Stephen Petronio Company, Robert Battle’s Battleworks Dance Company, The Center for Kinesthetic Education, and The Diller-Quaile School of Music. In her spare time, Jillian enjoys taking ballet class, gardening, and hiking with her family. Jillian is a certified Professional in Human Resources (PHR).

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Transcript

Tim Cynova:

Hi, I’m Tim Cynova and welcome to Work. Shouldn’t. Suck., a podcast about, well that. On this episode, we’re talking tools. Specifically, we’re talking about a tool called the behavior dashboard. The behavior dashboard was developed by the team at Fractured Atlas to help staff articulate the often murky areas of behaviors and quote unquote soft skills that differentiate, say, what’s necessary for someone to succeed and thrive as a senior director versus someone in a director position. Or what are the behaviors you most need to see from someone in the CEO role and how might those be similar or different from someone in an admin associate role? Spoiler alert, it’s not just the passage of time. I talk with Pallavi Sharma and Jillian Wright about the journey they took that helped lead the creation of this tool, what it is exactly, how it can be used, and what questions and future hopes they still have for it.

If you want to follow along at home, you can download a copy of Fractured Atlas’s behavior dashboard from our website at workshouldntsuck.co. So let’s get going. Jillian and Pallavi, welcome to the podcast.

Pallavi Sharma:

Thanks for having us.

Jillian Wright:

Thanks for having us. Yeah.

Tim Cynova:

So you both were the driving forces behind the creation of a tool used at Fractured Atlas called the behavior dashboard. Jillian, do you want to get us started with what is this dashboard and why did you two set out to create it?

Jillian Wright:

Sure. So the behavior dashboard is essentially the articulation of the knowledge, skills, abilities, this sort of sometimes called the soft skills that we feel like people need to be successful at the organization.

Pallavi Sharma:

And I guess if I had to talk about why we created it, it actually started during a performance review process and as with most organizations, we had a pretty traditional process where we focused more on metrics and key result areas and kind of job based performance. In going through one of those formative evaluation processes, talking to a number of different members of the team, it became quite apparent that we were missing something very critical, and that was stuff beyond just work performance and metrics and things related to how they were connecting with other people in the organization, what their behavior was like, what were the skills and abilities they were displaying that went over and above just work knowledge that was helping them and the team and the organization kind of do better. It also became more important as we started talking about growth and promotions and growth in professional development.

Pallavi Sharma:

As you move higher in an organization, job knowledge and specific understanding of the work that you have to do starts to become more standard. Most people at a certain level have the requisite knowledge to do a job. What sets people apart then is the so called soft skills, the abilities, the team dynamics, the behavior that makes them stars or superstars in an organization, and it felt like we were missing that piece in our evaluation process.

Tim Cynova:

How did you start to identify what are those things and how do we perhaps map this in a way that people could then use, either with the conversations between someone and their supervisor or to look at and think, “I’m at this level and how do I get to that level if it’s maybe not just the number of years that I stayed in a role.”

Pallavi Sharma:

I think this is where Jillian’s expertise and just the amount of work that she put into this whole process comes in, because when I started thinking about this requirement through the performance evaluation process, after the performance evaluation process, as I started to talk about it, I mean, what I had literally was a list on a document of some things that I thought were important. And again, these came out while I was having these conversations. It was helpful to capture them in the moment, but clearly what I had was a very rudimentary starting point. And then it was after that that Jillian and I started talking about what happens with this and then I’ll let Jillian jump in, because it went from like a basic, it’s like riding a unicycle to going full Concorde, is the analogy I’d give you, because where she took it from there, it was just like a place I never imagined was possible.

Jillian Wright:

Yeah, I feel like I saw a missed opportunity here, but being able to articulate this could be such a great management tool in a way that people could really start to see sort of what the future looks like. I just … I got really excited about it. I started doing a lot of research and I thought, this must be a solved problem. There must be some sort of tools or a set process or something out there that exists that we can just use and adapt and see if we can make it work for Fractured Atlas. I did a lot of research and I found some things, but nothing was quite sticking or nothing felt like, oh that’s really easily applicable. And it made me think even more, gosh, this is really something the field needs or something that the field could use. Yeah, I think Pallavi and I started just kind of thinking who’s been really successful at our organizations and thinking about we have really strong articulated core values, but we don’t have how those show up, and let’s try to figure out how to articulate how those show up at Fractured Atlas.

Tim Cynova:

You identified a need, you identified that there aren’t great tools out there to assist with this. How is the dashboard supposed to work? We’ve talked about a dashboard, but for listeners, what does it look like? How do you use it?

Jillian Wright:

First I want to say that when we built the dashboard, when we were thinking about these skills and knowledge and things that people need to be successful, we really tried to think across the organization, not just specific to a department. When we built it, we tried to think about this should not be a carbon copy of what our different titles of the organization are. It’s not just about associates are this, this is this. It’s really about the growth of your career and how things show up within that context.

Pallavi Sharma:

Yeah, I think if I had to frame it differently, I think it’s kind of an increasing level of impact in those areas, which is usually something that comes with time and experience and frequent usage of those skills and behaviors, and as folks have more exposure to the opportunities to use those behaviors, they usually become better and better at it and it manifests very differently. It’s kind of width and breadth and depth of impact, I guess in each of those areas, which doesn’t necessarily directly tie into kind of seniority in years, but again, like I said, I think more in terms of how many opportunities the person might have had to exhibit or use those skills and abilities that they had. To Jillian’s other point, it kind of crossed functional areas as well as levels of depth of experience that different team members may have.

Jillian Wright:

I think we also tried to be really mindful of that point too, Pallavi as you were mentioning, about seniority. It’s not a number. It’s not like you have to have done this for X years to be able to meet this sort of impact or have this sort of impact. We really wanted to think more globally about opportunities that you’ve had or ways you’ve been able to make that work show up.

Pallavi Sharma:

Yeah, which was also an interesting exercise, because as we obviously … As this behavior dashboard was developed, we tested it. I mean, and kind of whether it was internally or just thinking through it, it also becomes a management tool in that if you believe that certain skills or behaviors are necessary or valuable in a role, then you need to create the opportunities for team members to exhibit and learn those skills and abilities. And that actually became one of the interesting conversations we started having, is it’s not just about whether they exhibit certain behaviors or abilities. Do they have the opportunity to? Did we create the opportunity for them to use them? Because that’s what develops expertise in anyone.

Tim Cynova:

The tool that you created actually has four different tiers. One, two, three, four, with one being sort of base level. If you … When you enter the organization, this is what you should be able to do at say an associate level across the board. And then four being an executive leadership you need to exhibit all of the skills in one, two, three and also four. They don’t map directly two tiers at Fractured Atlas. There’s some … You need to do 3.5 or two to 3.5 in this area, and then others depending on what the column is. You have five different columns that cover expertise, what you need to know is number one or listed first, manifestation, how you do things is the second column, collaboration, how you work with others, leadership, how you lead and inspire, and vision, how you see things. Those are the four rows and then the five columns and then you two mapped each one of the roles, associates, specialist, associate director, director, senior director, sort of C level to all of those across the organization. How did you come up with those from your exploration? Why did you choose expertise, manifestation, collaboration, leadership and vision? Was this divinely inspired right out of the gate or did you like, okay, that’s not exactly … We’re missing a hole here or something like that?

Jillian Wright:

During some of the research process, I was able to see other examples of how other organizations were articulating these things. Some of these things are things that really resonated from that, thought were super applicable to things that we think people need to have when they are growing and having growth at the organization. Yeah, it was certainly a many, many, many times revised tool, and it continues honestly to be something that we look at, we assess, we think, hm, is this still what we should have for that?

Pallavi Sharma:

To put this in perspective, I mean, we have what, 20 boxes, grid boxes in this and the process took us a year maybe, more. It was definitely an iterative process. I mean, it didn’t just like suddenly appear one day. There was a lot of back and forth and a lot of evaluation and review and modification of each element of a grid. Definitely a long, well thought out or thoughtful process. Well thought out, history will tell us whether it was well thought out, but it was definitely thoughtful.

Tim Cynova:

I remember specifically you two were wrestling with, during that year as you’re testing and seeing where the holes might be, the distinction between a director and a senior director. In a lot of organizations, it just means time. The difference between a director and a senior director is that the senior director has been working in the field for 15 years and the director has been working for five. And you two were really wrestling with, no, that’s not. It’s not just time. Some people jump right into their careers and have the behaviors, the knowledge skills and abilities to be a senior director. That’s not necessarily time. Can you talk a bit about maybe that example or other things that you wrestled with that were particularly thorny to boil down to? What are the behaviors that make that distinction?

Jillian Wright:

Well, something I’d like to say too is that, so visualize in your mind each of these boxes and each of them have sort of a subheader. As you’re talking about that, Tim, it made me think of this one bullet point that we have. We went around on it Pallavi, and I think we came to a good place. Under manifestation, which is how you do things, a level three we have advising, and the bullet point that I’m thinking about specifically is this point that says, “You are not afraid to dive in and make mistakes when faced with the unknown.” And we felt like that was a pretty critical skill that people needed to be successful. People can make a lot, maybe it could be this way, but actually just diving in and doing it and not being afraid to make a mistake and just do the work. We felt that was a really important point.

Pallavi Sharma:

And the way that kind of showed up to kind of answer the question about senior directors versus directors is when it comes to opportunities, again to exhibit behavior or having had the chance. And sometimes it really is about how long you’ve been working, because the opportunities don’t all show up in one year. They show up over the course of time and as you spend more time in a working environment, you get more opportunities to exhibit that behavior. And so that ability to dive into the unknown, kind of this comfort with ambiguity, seemed to be really critical, because some of them at a senior director level or a C-level, not only has to be comfortable with that for themselves, but be able to drive the team to be comfortable with that. And that experience often does not come early in folks career, or not the experience, but the ability to manage that experience and handle that experience and show success in managing that experience outside of yourself.

Pallavi Sharma:

Managing ambiguity for yourself or within your role could be easy, but managing it for a larger group of people is where the challenge comes in. And folks who would have had that opportunity tend to be folks who have been, unless you’ve been in a startup environment or something where this kind of stuff gets thrown at you all the time. But even then, that tends to be more of an individualistic kind of achievement. I think that’s a very specific example, but it kind of speaks to the back and forth we had to put in in order to make sure that we were not only recognizing skills and abilities that are somewhat unique and maybe don’t show up that often, but also are critical to the organization and we need to be aware of as folks come into the team.

Tim Cynova:

I remember one of the challenges that you’re wrestling with was both the frequency of being able to do that thing, but also the calibration maybe of what that thing is when you’re in an associate role versus what that thing is when you’re in a director role. You may actually be doing that thing, but it could be different. And so there was this, how do you actually articulate it in a way so that it’s properly, I guess calibrated so that there is a progression.

Pallavi Sharma:

I think that’s where the subheaders actually come in and again, without actually seeing the dashboard or having it in front of you, and I would say please go to our website and check it out. I think it’s on there, the Fractured Atlas website, the subheaders actually do talk about the progression. If you take leadership, for example, as one of the columns, which is how you lead and inspire, level one talks about the self. Talks about how you show leadership for yourself, you hold yourself accountable for your own decisions, you share, you raise questions, et cetera. Then you get to team, where it’s just not you, but it’s maybe your immediate team that you’re working with. Then you go to community, which is a little bit broader. And then finally, at level four, you’re impacting the whole sector. It really is not necessarily about how much you manifest it, but as I said, right in the beginning, it’s about impact. How many people … What breadth of impact are you having with that behavior or in what you do and the kinds of decisions and choices you’re making. And I think that was a very, very critical part of how the progression was defined.

Tim Cynova:

How is this tool actually used then? Everyone in Fractured Atlas has access to this. What does it look like when it’s being used?

Jillian Wright:

We feel strongly that professional development conversations and opportunities should not just be stagnant to once a year. You only talk about it at one time and it’s queued up right with your self assessment and in the new year starting. We’ve implemented it in a number of different ways. We do use it during the annual self assessment process, which happens for us every summer, but we also have embedded it into when we bring new people on board. When new staff start, they go through a core curriculum program that we’ve developed at Fractured Atlas, and they really start to learn about this tool, and we hope that they have set conversations as they begin their tenure with us at the one and three and six month marker, and we have created some sort of targeted questions that help managers sort of talk through the dashboard with new folks, talk about where they’re fitting on the dashboard, what skills and opportunities can come up to help them sort of grow in areas where they need to grow. We also use this tool in our performance improvement plan process, otherwise known as PIPPs. When somebody is having a challenge with one of the behaviors that we think are really critical, we can really point to this tool and say, “This is where we can help you develop. How are we going to do that?” And kind of rally around some really clear guidelines on what those things are.

Pallavi Sharma:

Yeah. The other thing, I think we encourage managers to use behavior dashboard more frequently. Again, to Jillian’s point, this shouldn’t be something that comes up only at formal check-ins or formal evaluation timeframes. It’s something that should be used on an ongoing basis. Whenever behavior either manifests itself or doesn’t manifest itself when it should, this should be a conversation, and the behavior dashboard is a great tool to use to say, “Okay, this is what we’re looking for and you either manifested it or didn’t.” And then helping team members learn from that experience, give them the guidelines, the guidance, the help, the support they need to start exhibiting the behavior or become better at exhibiting the behavior or create more opportunities for them to exhibit that behavior. There’s a number of different ways, so it’s not just performance improvement, but if we find someone who’s a budding star, because they’re showing signs of using some of these skills and abilities at a level where maybe it’s not expected of them, then the idea would be how do we create more opportunities so we can help them grow and develop and maybe contribute to the organization more as well as just grow in their own development and understanding of their professional behavior and life.

Tim Cynova:

I know when this tool was originally envisioned, there was an additional piece to this that was going to … Hopefully, the idea was I believe, objectively assess performance in sort of a Myers-Briggs type, staff member completes this survey, a supervisor completes this survey based on where the person is in the role. It maps both of those things to the behavior dashboard, and then while we could see it’s perfectly calibrated, everyone … They are where they need to be for their role and their understanding of what they do is the same as what the … Or their abilities and behaviors are directly in line with their supervisors. That is not a currently a piece of this.

Jillian Wright:

Yeah. One thing that we really tried to address with the dashboard, with this questionnaire that we were building, was bias. Everybody has biases. Let’s try to figure out a way to much more objectively assess where people fall across the organization. It’s a challenge. It’s a challenge to calibrate results of that sort of questionnaire, it’s a challenge to articulate a soft skill in a way that’s going to be read the same by everyone. And I think that’s kind of where the challenge … Where we came up against some challenges.

Pallavi Sharma:

I can see Jillian’s trying to find a very dramatic way to say it. But I mean, it’s in the name. I mean, how do you put hard numbers to a soft skill? I mean, that’s effectively the place we ended up. Not even hard numbers, but hard data to a soft skill. And by definition, all of these traits and behaviors, and the fact that they were filled in by individuals, there was a difference in understanding. I mean, folks just read the questions differently. They interpreted how they had used it or manifested differently. I mean to go back to what something that we talked about earlier, which is kind of the incremental impact of what you’re doing, until we started to get more clear on the importance of the breadth of impact that someone was having in manifesting this behavior, a lot of folks thought they were at the highest level of manifestation.

Pallavi Sharma:

I mean, everyone was ending up at level four, because they were doing great. That was true, but it was true for the context of their role and the work that they were doing, and it was hard for individual team members to calibrate what their impact was in the context of the overall organization or the sector at large. And so even though we tried to figure out ways that we could find some way to differentiate between those impact levels, again there didn’t seem to be a quantifiable way to do that. It also felt like that’s where the expertise we needed maybe was different. What was built was built by business leaders, human resources and people ops leaders. And then this questionnaire kind of gets into the ultra high level market research type question.

Jillian Wright:

The people analytics.

Pallavi Sharma:

Yeah. Yeah. And I don’t think … We didn’t think it was a necessary component at that point to kind of invest in building out the super sophisticated tool. We first wanted to make sure the behavior dashboard, as it was created, was useful and helpful for everyone in the organization. But you never know. Maybe that’s something we can explore in the future.

Tim Cynova:

You two spend a lot of time with this, thinking about it, piloting it, iterating on it. What are some of the behaviors on this list that you were able to articulate that you’re like, these are core to people being successful in their roles and maybe just their professional careers?

Jillian Wright:

A couple things that I think are really interesting is when you think about leadership, you always think about otherness, like how you’re impacting other people, but I really liked how through the conversation in the vetting, we came to this idea of self-leadership. How can you really show up and inspire sort of at an individual impact level, if you will. Being a positive influence, sharing your thoughts clearly, even when they’re not popular. Holding yourself accountable for your decisions, like these are just things that are really valuable and might not be having a sector wide impact, but are really key to a positive environment in the organization.

Pallavi Sharma:

I would say much of this is contextual. When we look at Fractured Atlas as an organization, we are an entrepreneurial organization. We are always challenging ourselves. There’s a lot of change that happens with that. I mean, we challenge what we do, we challenge how we do it, which was how we ended up at the behavior dashboard. Change is an important piece of what happens in the organization, and with change comes ambiguity, uncertainty. And one of the things that I felt was really hard to kind of quantify or put into words, articulate … Thank you, I’m having trouble articulating that, are things around comfort with ambiguity. As we mentioned earlier, you’re not afraid to dive in and make mistakes when faced with the unknown. You also have to motivate teams. I mean, it’s not just about you. You motivate teams in the organization, you facilitate safe and constructive communication.

Pallavi Sharma:

And again with change and ambiguity comes stress and discomfort with lots of people. I mean, everyone’s … Nobody loves change. How do you kind of bring the team with you? How do you manage conflict? How do you get people on board with the idea? There was a number of things around that that I felt like were really relevant to Fractured Atlas as an organization and we hadn’t articulated that in a way or checked in with team members during that time with us on how they were handling that or how they were helping others handle that. And I think bringing that piece in really helped in some of the conversations we had after.

Tim Cynova:

One of the things we haven’t mentioned yet is how this helped in the job interview process. Things like comfort with ambiguity and constant change, we knew those things were part of sort of the Fractured Atlas environment, but … And we had ways of asking questions or doing scenarios around them, but it wasn’t mapped specifically to, in a specialist role, this is going to be key so that we could then create scenarios around that specific thing or questions or figure out how to dive into that, to then go a little bit deeper when we were interviewing people to get more understanding, more data, if you will, around does this candidate have those things that we know you need to be successful in this role?

Jillian Wright:

I totally agree, and I think that you have such a small window of time in an interview process to really learn about somebody and if you can be really clear about yes, these are the behaviors, you can’t see their work product. What you can see is how they might embody these behaviors based on scenarios.

Pallavi Sharma:

Yeah. In fact, one of the things that happened very quickly, not just after we finished the dashboard, but as the dashboard sort of started coming together in a much more cohesive way, is we started changing questions along the interview process. I mean, the programs team had a number of hires that happened after the dashboard was created and with every round, we got better and better at modifying the questions and making them more tailored to the specific role that we were hiring for, and there were a lot more questions around what if scenario planning or giving them examples of situations that they might face in the organization and in a certain role and giving them the opportunity to explain how they would approach it with the hope of kind of eliciting out of them the kinds of behaviors we might be looking for. We changed questions I think across the board all the way from associates to senior director level, we added in more questions that allowed us to kind of hone in on the things we believed would be most important in that role. Not just, did you achieve your results, key results in your job, but did you ever struggle with the team? And that really helped. That was, I think, a huge advantage in the hiring process overall.

Tim Cynova:

Are there any other things you still want to explore with the tool?

Pallavi Sharma:

I’d say I think that we need to be using it more. I would really say … One, it’s a new tool. Folks are not used to using it. We’ve definitely gotten better at going back to it when the time is right, but I think we need more active usage of it on an ongoing basis at all points, like we talked about earlier, in the hiring process, in every kind of evaluation along the way, in any conversation with team members, I’d say that’s probably the biggest piece of it.

Tim Cynova:

Jillian?

Jillian Wright:

We’re constantly iterating, so maybe taking another sort of fresh … Continuing to take a fresh look at how we’re articulating things and making sure that they still really mean what we want them to mean and are articulating as clearly as we can, what we still think is really important.

Tim Cynova:

Yeah, the ability to change this … The usage of this into a habit. That’s not like, oh, we have that and then, oh, where is that? It’s like, no, this is just something that in regular courses of conversation, as we do with our programs and services, there is constant iterating. How do you make professional development and growth just a habit of the conversations that you have so that you’re setting people up, yourself included, for further growth inside the organization and outside the organization, but also making sure the things that we need to do are not being forgotten in the urgent versus the important rush of the usual day.

Pallavi Sharma:

Yeah. I remember when we were talking about how to encourage folks to use this more often, I recommend it to the programs team that they make this their screensaver or windows or the background, their laptop background. I’m pretty sure nobody did that, but … Including me. I’m as much at fault on that as anybody else. But yeah, I think really making this … That’s also how we would be able to evolve it. I mean, it’s … With usage is when we’ll be able to get more regular and consistent feedback, which will allow us to evolve it. I think the usage is not only helpful to make sure that we’re constantly reminding ourselves and each other about the behaviors that are needed to be successful that would allow folks to grow in the organization, but it would also be really helpful in ensuring that we have all the right abilities and skills captured and if any changes need to happen, that’s how it’s going to happen, from feedback.

Tim Cynova:

What advice do you have for other organizations who might be listening and think, oh, that’s a really interesting thing. I’d like to explore that, see that, maybe not the year and a half that went into developing this for us, but with the organizations who are thinking those are actually really great questions for us to wrestle with and to articulate, and maybe we don’t have this tool, but what kind of advice do you have for them?

Pallavi Sharma:

Well, as they say, smart person learns from other’s mistakes. Learn from our learning, not from our mistakes. I mean, the tool is there and it’s been shared and other organizations should definitely look at what’s available out there, because there may be something that comes close to what they need, but guaranteed that nothing outside there is going to meet their need exactly. I think modification and application to the specifics of your own organization is really key, so even if you find something that you think is close to what you need, take a very good, hard look at it and make sure it really maps to your core values, what’s important in the different roles within your organization and what you’re trying to achieve. Don’t assume that it’ll work as is. And again, as we do, iterate. Start somewhere and then build on it so you don’t have to take a year and a half. You could jump in with something that’s available, maybe tweak it a little bit and start sooner, and then build on it as you go along. Know that it’s an experiment. It doesn’t have to be something that’s set in stone from day one.

Jillian Wright:

Yeah, and I would just add that, I mean, we started with a list that Pallavi just kind of wrote on the back of a napkin. I don’t … If you just started thinking like, okay, what are successful people at our organization doing differently than other people? How do we articulate those things? And just really went from there and yeah, I think that would be sort of a good starting point. People were looking for ideas.

Tim Cynova:

What are your closing thoughts on the topic? Closing thoughts on professional development and growth and tools that work and organizations working to support people where they are and where they need to be and where they want to go and what they want to be when they grow up.

Pallavi Sharma:

I would say, on a purely intellectual level, this was a really fun exercise. We don’t often get to do things like this. Mostly your life is just consumed by tactical things that you’re doing on an everyday basis, you’re focused on your job and this was something completely new and not done before and so it was an exciting process to go through. It gave me an opportunity to work with Jillian on something completely different. For a change, we weren’t looking at finance numbers, and that was really great, because it also gave us a chance to get to know each other in a very different way. From that perspective, it was just a fascinating process to go through. But I think for me it also just reinforces, and I don’t think anyone should … I think a lot of folks as they’re entering their professional careers, and even along the way, they’re always thinking about, oh, what course should I do? What further degree should I do? And where’s this Excel class and where’s this writing class that I want to do? And there’s not enough talk put into what are the soft skills or the behaviors or values that I want to hold and exhibit in my professional life?

Pallavi Sharma:

And I would say, it’s never too early to start. I mean, the sooner you start, the more experienced and expert you’re going to be at these skills and abilities. I would say, I just wish more folks would be thinking about it early in their career and work on it at every step along the way.

Jillian Wright:

Yeah, I totally agree. I feel like this was a really exciting opportunity to help people think about their career path that they’re on. And really, it makes a lot of good organizational sense, because when people feel like they have an understanding of what’s expected and where they’re growing and how that aligns with the organization, they stay much more engaged and then I think that makes the work better, people feel better. Just a win-win.

Tim Cynova:

Jillian and Pallavi, it’s always a pleasure getting to spend time with you, working with you. Thank you so much for being on the podcast.

Jillian Wright:

Thank you.

Pallavi Sharma:

Thank you for having us.

Tim Cynova:

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