Last Updated
April 7, 2020
Work. Shouldn't. Suck. LIVE: The Morning(ish) Show with special guest Aaron Dworkin, Social Entrepreneur, Artist, Philanthropist, & Professor of Arts Leadership & Entrepreneurship. [Live show recorded: April 6, 2020.]
Guest: Aaron Dworkin
Co-Hosts: Tim Cynova & Lauren Ruffin
Guest
AARON DWORKIN Named a 2005 MacArthur Fellow, President Obama’s first appointment to the National Council on the Arts and Governor Snyder’s appointment to the Michigan Council for Arts & Cultural Affairs, Aaron P. Dworkin served as dean of the University of Michigan’s School of Music, Theatre & Dance (SMTD), which is ranked among the top performing arts schools in the nation. He is currently a tenured full professor of arts leadership and entrepreneurship at SMTD as well as serving as a Professor of Entrepreneurial Studies at the Stephen M. Ross School of Business at the University of Michigan. In addition, Aaron is a successful social entrepreneur having founded The Sphinx Organization, the leading arts organization with the mission of transforming lives through the power of diversity in the arts. He is also co-founder of SonoGrub.com, a weekly blog pairing great food and music. As a best-selling writer, Aaron has authored The Entrepreneurial Artist: Lessons from Highly Successful Creatives published by Rowman & Littlefield, a science-fiction novel, Ethos: Rise of Malcolm published by MorganJames, as well as his memoir titled Uncommon Rhythm: A Black, White, Jewish, Jehovah's Witness, Irish Catholic Adoptee's Journey to Leadership released through Aquarius Press, a poetry collection, They Said I Wasn’t Really Black, and a children’s book The 1st Adventure of Chilli Pepperz.
A lifelong musician, Aaron is a prominent spoken-word performing artist represented by Cadenza Artists. He has collaborated with a breadth of artists including Yo-Yo Ma, Damien Sneed, Anna Deveare Smith, Damian Woetzel, Lil Buck and others. His visual digital art project, Fractured History, has been exhibited at multiple galleries and museums to rave reviews. He recorded and produced two CDs, entitled Ebony Rhythm and Bar-Talk, in addition to writing, producing, and directing the independent film Deliberation.
A multi-media performing artist, author, social entrepreneur, artist-citizen, and educator, Aaron continually receives extensive national recognition for his leadership and service to communities. He has been featured in numerous media outlets, and was named one of Newsweek’s “15 People Who Make America Great.” He is the recipient of the Royal Philharmonic Society Honorary Membership, Harvard University’s Vosgerchian Teaching Award, National Governors Association 2005 Distinguished Service to State Government Award, Detroit Symphony Orchestra’s 2007 Lifetime Achievement Award, Detroit News’s 2003 Michiganian of the Year Award, Crain’s 40 Under 40 and Who’s Who Awards, BET’s History Makers in the Making Award, AT&T Excellence in Education Award, and National Black MBA’s Entrepreneur of The Year.
As an artist curator, he has served as a juror for some of the most prestigious international competitions including the Menuhin Competition, London Music Masters Competition, Stulberg International Violin Competition and the Sphinx Competition. A sought-after global thought leader and a passionate advocate for excellence in arts education, entrepreneurship and leadership, as well as inclusion in the performing arts, Aaron is a frequent keynote speaker and lecturer at numerous national and global arts, creativity and technology conferences. He served as commencement speaker at the Curtis Institute of Music, University of Michigan, Longy Conservatory and twice for Bowling Green State University. In May of 2013, the renowned Curtis Institute of Music awarded Honorary Doctorates to Aaron and Sir Simon Rattle, longtime maestro of the Berlin Philharmonic. Aaron also holds bachelor’s and master’s degrees in violin performance from the University of Michigan.
Aaron personifies arts leadership, entrepreneurship and community commitment with an unwavering passion for the arts, diversity and their role in society. He serves regularly as a board or advisory member for numerous influential arts organizations including the National Council on the Arts and Michigan Council for Arts and Cultural Affairs. As the co-chair of the Arts and Cultural Education Task Force for the State of Michigan, Aaron designed the required arts curriculum for Michigan schools.
Aaron has strong interests in politics, innovation, creativity, human pair bonding and issues of economic and social justice. In addition to various genres of music and disciplines of the performing arts, he enjoys travel, movies, and the culinary arts. He is married to Afa Sadykhly Dworkin, a prominent international arts leader who serves as President and Artistic Director of the Sphinx Organization and has two awesome sons, Noah Still and Amani Jaise. Find more at aarondworkin.com.
Transcript
Tim Cynova:
Hi, I'm Tim Cynova and welcome to Work Shouldn't Suck Live the morning-ish show. On today's episode, Lauren Ruffin and I are joined by Aaron Dworkin. Social entrepreneur, performing artists, philanthropist, professor of arts leadership and entrepreneurship at the University of Michigan.
Tim Cynova:
Aaron is the founder and former president of the Sphinx Organization. A leading arts organization with the mission of transforming lives through the power of diversity in the arts. He was named a 2005 MacArthur Fellow. He was President Obama's first appointment to the National Council on the Arts. He's a published author and his book, The Entrepreneurial Artist: Lessons from Highly Successful Creatives, is now available on Audible. SonoGrub.com, the site he runs with his wife Afa, pairs great food and great music. It makes me hungry every time they publish a new piece. Without further ado, Aaron, welcome to the show.
Aaron Dworkin:
It's great to be here. Thanks so much.
Lauren Ruffin:
Aaron, can you talk to us a little bit about how are you doing? We were talking in the green room about how our lives have been radically changed in a month. How are you doing?
Aaron Dworkin:
I'm doing great. I think probably one of the key things that I would share is just literally every day I wake up and fall asleep with appreciation. There are so many people, not just in our own community and society who are suffering. Either those who are suffering directly from the health impacts of what's going on, to those who have really significant financial impact that they're already experiencing.
Aaron Dworkin:
To be able to continue the work that I do and to be able to be healthy at this point, is just something that fills me with great appreciation. I'd say over more than anything else, I'm doing great and in the midst of that feeling great appreciation.
Lauren Ruffin:
Fantastic. I'm glad to hear that. Over the weekend, sort of the story that's starting to trend is that black and brown communities are being hit much harder. I think they were saying 70% of the deaths in Chicago were African American. It's looking like Detroit, Michigan might be another sort of epicenter. Are you starting to see these things in your community? If so, can you give us some of your thoughts about how we might be able to combat that or talk about it? Sort of wrap our brains around another sort of racial injustice that's happening right in front of our eyes.
Aaron Dworkin:
It's one of these things that I think is so insidious in our society and that's because it's actually complex. Number one, yes, absolutely. We're experiencing it. We're experiencing it in Detroit. We're experiencing in Washtenaw County specifically. Where I live here, over 50% of those who are impacted by the virus are African American even though we're 12% of a population. Obviously in Detroit, all of our communities that are hardest hit are those that are predominantly African American and those communities and neighborhoods that have the least resources.
Aaron Dworkin:
One of the things is that it would be so easy if there was kind of an evil boogeyman out there and they are just causing the virus to affect black people. We could be like, okay, that's to blame and we can just solve it that way, but the problem is, is that all of these things that already existed. All of these injustices, disparities that already existed in our society just contributes.
Aaron Dworkin:
When something happens when our society experiences challenges, the burden is [inaudible 00:03:32] on those who are in underserved communities or who have less resources. We're seeing that reflected through this pandemic and because it's so profound, it is truly, truly tragic.
Aaron Dworkin:
If we look at the disparities of access to healthcare, number one. If we look at simply the way in which we work and those who are in so many frontline employment positions in our communities don't have the opportunity to social distance the way that someone who might be a college professor. Again, I talk about that appreciation.
Aaron Dworkin:
I am extraordinarily lucky that my main job enables me to pretty much relatively easily work from home, but for the vast majority of people, especially people of color, it's not such an easy option. Then sometimes you're faced with, do I just not make money? Do I put myself at risk? If I put myself at risk, do I go home and then risk my family? All of these types of decisions are just harder and the burden is heavier for those who have the least in our society.
Aaron Dworkin:
That is kind of like, okay, so this really is terrible and challenging, so what can we do about it? One, I think first, obviously me and our family, we're trying to identify where is the need greatest. Especially in our local community and how can we just directly help out whether financially or in other ways. A lot of people are trying to find ways to help out in their communities. Make masks or other things for those who may not have, et cetera. We can delve into it our local shelter association is having extraordinarily challenging times. That's been one area where we've tried to at least help a little bit.
Aaron Dworkin:
Then also, I think it's looking and saying as we move forward from this and before we're too far removed, where the acuteness of the impact of what's happening has faded, which I think for human beings we tend to have it fade pretty quick. Before that fades, can we look and develop policies that will be protective for the longterm so that the next challenge that we face, because there will be one, can it be not as deeply borne by those who have less?
Tim Cynova:
Several years ago, when you were still at the Sphinx Organization, we were hosting a panel during the Sphinx Con and you talked about how the Sphinx Organization used ROWE or Results Only Work Environment and what that looked like at Sphinx. It's been several years since then. You've been the dean at the University of Michigan. You're on faculty now. You're working from the Sphinx Organization to massive institution. There's been several years.
Tim Cynova:
Can you unpack, sort of what ROWE is to begin with and then how maybe your thinking has changed or how it plays out in these different size and different organizations? At the same time that right now, University of Michigan, I work at the new school, Laura works at NYU. Massive institutions are quickly trying to figure out how you put this thing online? That was never meant to be done in 24 hours. Flipped over. So I'm really fascinated by how this all sort of stitches together for you?
Aaron Dworkin:
Well, it's really interesting because you're exactly right. All of these institutions and organizations have had to adjust in a 24 hour period all of a sudden shift. One of the things that I always teach my students in entrepreneurship and arts leadership, is I said, "Instead of letting life happen to you, happen to life. Be intentional. Architect the trajectory of your life instead of letting it just happen and cobbling together things. For example, cobbling together a portfolio life rather than intentionally building it like you might build a financial portfolio."
Aaron Dworkin:
Years ago, Sphinx very intentionally built a work setting that I think has made the organization incredibly resilient in times of change such as this. Years ago we instituted ROWE, which is a Results Only Work Environment. This was originally founded at Best Buy and then spun off as a separate company Culture [RS 00:07:35].
Aaron Dworkin:
The main gist of it we could spend shows on it, is that the primary priority of an organization is results, results only. All of a sudden, once you begin to focus on what are the goals for a particular position? All of these other things that in historically we've tended to notice or pay attention to, don't matter.
Aaron Dworkin:
For example, are you in the office? If all of [inaudible 00:08:03] versus your results, for example, at Sphinx. If you can get your work done on a beach in Tahiti, what does Sphinx care if the impact, for example, on young people and providing them access and instruction on a classical instrument is happening in the most effective and efficient and impactful way, how that work gets done doesn't matter.
Aaron Dworkin:
Part of the components of this is that there are no standard working hours, which means no one's required to be in the office at any particular time. Any day you might wander into Sphinxes offices and there might be one person or there might be 10 people and you just wouldn't know. Some people would be in the office maybe once every couple of weeks and other people might be in six days a week just because of the nature of their goals, but most importantly how they would want to work.
Aaron Dworkin:
Some people, because of maybe their family circumstances want to be able to work at home. Some people want to be able to work from four in the morning until eight. Then take a couple hour break and then work from two until five, or some people don't want to get up in the morning and don't want to start work until 10 or 11:00. Then work until 3:00 in the morning. Whatever those circumstances are, a flexible work environment like that ends up maximizing productivity.
Aaron Dworkin:
One of the reason years ago Sphinx pulled this up and adopted it is because if you actually look at the data, you find that your teams are more productive, are happier, have a longer retention period, less turnover, et cetera and that is why that has now born out for Sphinx over the years.
Aaron Dworkin:
In terms of the current crisis that we're sitting in, there are so many organizations that I know that had to make a drastic change and of course had to do it all of a sudden. Weren't prepared and there was chaos, and a lot of stress, and a lot of mental health impact for teams as part of these organizations because of the stress of that immediate transition.
Aaron Dworkin:
For Sphinx, not much has actually changed internally. Externally obviously for example, Sphinxes summer programs Sphinx is dealing with how to transition those. However, because of the way that Sphinx works, all of its team members are fully engaged, fully operational. Right from the get go, any, even the most quote unquote juniors Sphinx is a very flat organization, but even the most junior if you will, team member who comes on is immediately issued with a smartphone, a tablet if they want one, and a laptop. So pretty much any Sphinx team member can do anything from anywhere.
Aaron Dworkin:
In terms of looking at those summer programs now, obviously some of which may need to go remote, they're working on those decisions at this point. Then how they do that, and how they think about teaching, and how we teach a student, and can that be done remotely? How to adopt or utilize the technology? Sphinx already has a lot of those skill sets. So that transition is happening relatively smoothly and it's happening thoughtfully and in a measured way rather than being very reactive.
Aaron Dworkin:
That's kind of how Sphinx has been able to adopt and again, I think the whole team at Sphinx is very appreciative that they're in that circumstance where they can be addressing it in that way.
Aaron Dworkin:
With the University of Michigan, it was interesting because a little over five years ago when I came in as dean, I was looking at a lot of these ways that a small entrepreneurial organization was working and saying, "Okay, this works at a $5 million annual budget organization. Now I'm moving into the School of Music Theater and Dance, which is pretty much a $60 million operation. Going from 40 to 50 full and part time employees to 180 faculty, 100 staff. It's 1100 students."
Aaron Dworkin:
A much different scale, but part of the reason that I was brought in was to bring those entrepreneurial ideas, but to see how thoughtfully they could be applied in a larger setting like that. Especially that setting in a larger multibillion dollar research university. Obviously, we couldn't just come in and snap my fingers and have the School of Music Theater and Dance operator as a ROWE.
Aaron Dworkin:
However, so many faculty in many ways already do operate in these ways. Really, most faculty members are themselves in a miniature entrepreneurial entity. When you think about their teaching, their professional activities, their service, and how that gets done. Now they have to interact with the other members of their department and all of that and the school as a whole.
Aaron Dworkin:
Anyway, we began to look at these things and I think what is interesting to me is that some of those ideas that we began to adopt, we began to look at, and we have in a few years, but some of that pushback that occurred wouldn't of course occur now. Some of those ideas that seemed far more radical, which was how about we take some of our staff and have them work more remotely? Or look at some of things and now of course they're like, "Maybe we'll keep that."
Aaron Dworkin:
It's interesting to see how the world can change in a month, but I do think that we helped move the institution, which is more of a ship than a little jet boat. I do think that we were able to change its direction and steer it so that now it's better equipped. For example, the whole department that didn't exist before. Then a lab which relates to entrepreneurship, career development, career empowerment, this idea, how are we preparing all of our students to be successful actually out in the world?
Aaron Dworkin:
So separate from the development of their discipline or their artistic craft. What about all those other skill sets that the modern world requires of them to apply that artistic talent and to engage in it in a meaningful way. A lot of those kind of guts of that have now been developed at the institution and are at play because potentially this department, which is the department in which I teach, was more prepared to operate in this environment.
Aaron Dworkin:
The webinars, the online access, some of the remote teaching, and sessions, and seminars already were in practice in such a way that the department and the lab have been able to do a lot of work that was already relatively prepared in terms of the capacity to do it.
Lauren Ruffin:
One, I have so many thoughts, my brain exploded a little bit. I'm curious about the transition from Sphinx to University of Michigan as a founder because so many founders personal identities are wrapped up in the founding.
Lauren Ruffin:
I'd love for you to talk a little bit about how long that transition took and how you approached it? Then ultimately it was really interesting even though you're no longer with Sphinx to hear you talk about how Sphinx is handling the transition to remote and sort of ROWE? How did that feel to you and how did you approach that transition?
Aaron Dworkin:
Well one of the things that I was very, very lucky that my successor, that our board went through a very deep dive and process to go through who had been the longtime executive director, former director of development, longtime artistic director of the organization [OFA 00:15:10] was my successor.
Aaron Dworkin:
As a founder it was very easy. Some founders I think feel great, worry, or concern that their organization won't continue to thrive. They worry about their successors ability. That simply was just not a factor for me. I knew that not only would the organization thrive, but that I thought it would potentially grow in ways that it might not have been able to under me.
Aaron Dworkin:
Founders we continue to lead the organization I was almost 20 years. Sometimes a shift, a change is something that can actually be good for an organization and give some new perspectives and new avenues that it can go through.
Aaron Dworkin:
Tim, you were actually talking about with Sphinx Con. That's one of the key things. When I stepped down from the organization, Sphinx Con as it was called, we were struggling to maybe bring in about 150 maybe shy of 200 people. Within just a couple of short years OFA had transitioned that to Sphinx Connect. Had broadened it and now has almost 1,000 people and has transformed as a conference. Would that have been able to occur under my continued leadership? Not so sure. I think I had some different ideas at the time.
Aaron Dworkin:
I had the luxury of not worrying as a founder about your life's work being in good hands. I think that's one key thing. Also, I was deeply dedicated and committed to this new role. I hadn't been looking to leave Sphinx, but when your alma mater calls and when you feel like you can make a difference and that there are either challenges or opportunities at an institution that you deeply love that you can have an impact on. That became my singular focus, which was how can I bring that?
Aaron Dworkin:
I think both the combination of a commitment to that new role, [inaudible 00:16:59] me a level of confidence about my beloved organization that I was transitioning from kind of let that actually happen very smoothly. Also, oddly enough, even though people think that a lot of founders have this, I didn't have kind of control issues. Whether it's the ... It's interesting. I have control issues over myself. I don't want other people to control me, but I don't have control issues over the institutions that I take part in. That includes even institutions or projects that I found or that I start.
Aaron Dworkin:
Ultimately whether you started something or you come in as a temporary steward, which is how I viewed my role at Michigan, which is also why I think that it was easy for me to step down and not invade or try and double question my successor as dean at Michigan. Is because we are all temporary stewards of the organizations that we leave.
Aaron Dworkin:
To think somehow that you're greater, that you have some more divine role that makes you more important than either the person who preceded you or the person who succeeds you, is just number one inaccurate because history will prove that wrong. Also I think it's just unhealthy. It makes us consumed with things that A, we probably don't have the power to change because we no longer sit in the seat and when you don't sit in the seat you don't have the power. Also, it can cause us, I think inadvertently sometimes, people to bring about a diminishing of an institution.
Aaron Dworkin:
Say you step out and down from a role and OFA makes a decision or the current dean of SMTD makes a decision that I don't like. If I somehow then go in and try and convince them otherwise or even worse, try and somehow convince others in the institution that their decisions are incorrect. It's irrelevant whether I'm right or not, I'm diminishing the institution from their current leader.
Aaron Dworkin:
I think A, it's a role that you just shouldn't have. I think it's kind of characteristic of ego that shows that what's more important to you is your own perspective of something rather than the institution that you actually say that you love. I can guarantee you there have been decisions OFA's made that Sphinx's or decisions that my successor at SMTD have made that I disagree with, but I do everything in my power to support and advocate. [Crosstalk 00:19:26].
Aaron Dworkin:
What I've found is that for the most part, almost without exception, their decisions were right. Even though in the moment I may have thought that they were wrong. In retrospect, I'm really glad I did everything I could to support them because it just helps to further both institutions.
Tim Cynova:
One decision someone made at Sphinx, I believe it was your last year when you're there. Was to extend an invitation to me to join at the Sphinx Medals of Excellence, which produced one of the most awesome and awkward experiences of my life. When you said, "It's Justice Ginsburg's birthday, let's all sing to her," and we spin around from where we were and I'm like four feet away from Justice Ginsburg here. I want to thank you for that.
Tim Cynova:
After a certainly awkwardness, it was an amazing experience. Both to be there and to honor the recipients of the Medals of Excellence, but I always assume I got on the invitation list because they're inviting like another Tim Cynova and I just showed up and no one said, "We didn't mean you," but that was a moment that, when my parents were still alive, after I quit playing trombone. I don't think they could tell you what I did in life, but showing them this, they're like, "He must be doing something well." So I want to thank you and your former Sphinx colleagues for providing me with that. A really amazing memory.
Aaron Dworkin:
Oh no, no, absolutely. Your role and your leadership in our community and our field has been so critical. Also vehicles such as the show are just tremendous, especially at these times where it gives people not just an opportunity to be informed about issues, but also to connect because really important.
Aaron Dworkin:
One thing I might just quickly add about that it's was an amazing experience and the medals which are celebrated. Justice Sotomayor is kind of presides and hosts that extraordinary event. One of the things that I always tell my students is they think about things. They think that things like that are somehow a different path. This is one of the reasons I bring in all these arts leaders to talk in an intimate, small format with my students. That those paths to leadership, those experiences that that's not just what someone else might be able to do, but that you can do it yourself.
Aaron Dworkin:
The way that that happened to come about was through literally, I just happened to be at a luncheon where I was seated next to Justice Sotomayor, but instead of having that be just this brief moment and an awe of someone who's one of these amazing leaders in our society and in history really. To then say, okay, to be prepared, to articulate, and advocate for at the time, obviously Sphinx and the work that Sphinx was doing and this issue, this mission. This movement that is so important in our field.
Aaron Dworkin:
To then be able to articulate it and from just that luncheon that then grew this idea and her engagement with it. Just say that any leaders, you can absolutely find yourself either at conferences or at concerts where you can get backstage and meet that particular artist, or at a conference meet that particular head of a foundation, or event and potentially even a Supreme Court Justice, but be prepared with those skillsets of how to articulate what your work is? What you believe in, what your mission is in life? And be able to articulate it to them in a way where they then have the opportunity to make a decision about whether to engage with you.
Aaron Dworkin:
That those are skillsets of leadership that you can develop, you can hone, and then bring into practice because none of us will ever do this work that we do on our own. For example, it's so clear. Five years now after having stepped down from my role and the organization, the mission, the movement, doing more than it's ever done. It wasn't me doing it. It is the collection of all of the artists, the teachers, the audiences, the musicians, the administrators, everyone combined doing this work. Your ability to bring others into the fold of a particular mission or a movement is what actually makes our work really powerful. Never the work of an individual.
Tim Cynova:
As we start to, and Lauren you get the last question, but I want to slide this one in here first. Aaron, your book, The Entrepreneurial Artist: Lessons From Highly Successful Creatives was just released in Audible format. So cool. If you haven't read it yet, it's now available in print and Audible. For those who haven't read it, what are some quick lessons maybe you included in there? Then we can pivot to Ruffin.
Aaron Dworkin:
What I wanted to do is actually almost exactly off of what I was just sharing, which is that we have these incredible entrepreneurial artist leaders in our community. what I wanted to do was to help take their stories and distill them into best practices.
Aaron Dworkin:
I actually went and interviewed all of these leading artists across a wide swath of disciplines. For example, for dance, Bill T. Jones, for theater Jeff Daniels, for musical theater, Lin Manuel Miranda. Marin Alsop for conducting, Midori for violin, et cetera. It runs across a broad swath. Winton Marseilles for jazz.
Aaron Dworkin:
I interviewed them and then share their stories from those interviews. Each of them has their own chapter and then through their stories I then actually outlined the key takeaways. The key artistic, creative entrepreneurial leadership takeaways and best practices. Then actually outline those at the end of each chapter. It both is a great kind of guide and tool for actual arts entrepreneurship, arts leadership, and arts leadership courses, but also just to settle in during quarantine and wrap yourself up in these extraordinary stories of these amazing people.
Lauren Ruffin:
I feel like I need to grab that and then incorporate it into my NYU course on entrepreneurship. I think all of my students should have read that this past semester.
Lauren Ruffin:
As we close, is there anything that's been top of mind for you that we haven't spoke about that you'd like to share with our audience?
Aaron Dworkin:
I think that it's although things are so difficult right now and some people are finding themselves in extraordinary challenging circumstances. That yes, we have to and the urgent priority is to address the now, but to also be thinking about the future. To be thinking about what are the longterm policies that we can potentially enact that will better help protect those in our society and in our communities who have access to the least?
Aaron Dworkin:
Also, I think in a pragmatic way to look at many of the changes that we've made out of a sense of urgency or emergency and say now that we were forced into these, which of these new practices and policies should we hold onto because they actually have value? Maybe we didn't try this particular remote learning or remote work because it just seemed wrong or because culturally our organization was resistant to it, but now that we've done it, we found that it saves us money, saves us time, increases our employee or team member productivity, and or their kind of happiness with work so that work doesn't suck. Be thinking about even in these times of challenge, how we can take advantage of some of these things that have occurred to actually create a better future.
Tim Cynova:
Aaron it's been wonderful spending the morning with you. Thank you so much for being on the show.
Aaron Dworkin:
Thanks so much. It was wonderful to be here with you. Take care.
Tim Cynova:
Continue the Work Shouldn't Suck Live adventure with us on our next episode. When we're joined by Javier Torres, director, thriving cultures at this Surdna Foundation. Miss us in the meantime, you can download more Work Shouldn't Suck episodes from your favorite podcasting platform of choice and re watch Work Shouldn't Suck Live episodes over on workshouldntsuck.co.
Tim Cynova:
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