Socrates Sculpture Park: Exploring Art, Community, and Experimentation (EP.83)
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Updated: June 10, 2025
In this on-location episode, host Tim Cynova visits Socrates Sculpture Park, a creative haven on along New York City’s East River. Once a landfill, Socrates is now a vibrant public space where artists and community members come together to imagine what’s possible. Co-Directors Katie Dixon and Shaun Leonardo join Tim to reflect on the park’s origins, its role in a rapidly changing neighborhood, and the creative and civic experiments it cultivates every day.
Together, they explore what it means to lead an arts organization in uncertain times, how their version of co-leadership works in practice, and why places like Socrates are essential. From the artist-led programming to the practicalities of funding, from personal memories to the future vision for the park, this wide-ranging conversation is a thoughtful reminder of the value of places that are not just made for community, but by and with community.
Quotables
“[Places like Socrates] are not an extra, or an added-good, or a nice-but-not-necessary. They are absolutely critical to a well-functioning society and to the ability of our neighbors, our fellow New Yorkers, our fellow citizens, to have the space to interact, to practice being human together… and to be able to fail at that sometimes. That requires space, and it requires care, and it requires a kind of attention that is important and necessary, and not to be taken for granted.” —Katie Dixon
“Socrates—as an arts institution and a public park—is the most democratic experiment that I've ever come to know because of our responsibility to community. Therefore, all the creative and public programming offerings that we make to our constituencies offers such a myriad of entry points to being here. I want to emphasize this idea of being the experiment is in not only the experience of art, but what art catalyzes in regards to a sense of belonging. Whether you're coming here for kayaking, the gardens, to walk your dog, to be part of some of the sculpture workshops, performances, etc., the art is unfolding whether you're conscious of it or not.” —Shaun Leonardo
Highlights:
Personal Histories and Inspirations (02:34)
The Evolution of Socrates Sculpture Park (05:12)
Community Engagement and Programming (08:01)
The Importance of Cultural Nonprofits (10:06)
Navigating Uncertainty and Sustaining Community Spaces (14:23)
The Co-Directorship Model (27:27)
Conclusion and Reflections (35:24)
Related Resources:
Bios
Katie Dixon, Co-Director, Socrates Sculpture Park
With over two decades of experience working at the intersection of the arts, architecture, and urban planning, Katie Dixon has created cross-sector partnerships and new artist-led programming for a broad range of arts, culture and civic organizations. Her work is based in collaborative research and centers consensus-building and cooperation among many different publics, institutions, government agencies and funders.
From 2014 to 2021, as the CEO of Powerhouse Arts, Dixon established the vision for a new artist-led institution and led the redevelopment and transformation of the former BRT Power Station in Brooklyn, which was named a New York City Landmark in 2019. Dixon and her team conducted intensive workshops and consultations with artists to develop the institution’s programming, organizational structure and physical planning. Powerhouse was a response to the needs for production space, fabrication expertise and support for artists working in traditional materials that is rapidly disappearing in New York City. In addition to the institutional development, Dixon led all aspects of programming and rehabilitating the 170,000 square-foot facility designed by architecture firm Herzog & de Meuron.
Dixon served as the Director of Special Projects at Brooklyn Academy of Music (BAM) from 2011 to 2014 where she established public art programming initiatives in the neighborhood, including works by KAWS and David Byrne. With BAM’s executive team, she also led capital and program planning efforts to grow and expand the institution. Prior to BAM, she was the Chief of Staff at the NYC Department of Cultural Affairs leading special initiatives for the Commissioner, as well as, overseeing the agency’s $700 million capital funding portfolio. From 2007 to 2010 as the Director of Planning and Development at the Downtown Brooklyn Partnership, she led the site development, arts program planning and administration of the Downtown Brooklyn Cultural District.
Dixon holds B.A. in Architecture from Yale University and a Master of International Affairs from Columbia University. She lives with her husband and daughter in Red Hook, Brooklyn.
Shaun Leonardo, Co-Director, Socrates Sculpture Park
Shaun Leonardo has dedicated over 15 year of his professional career to arts administration at the intersection of community engagement, public programming, and experimental pedagogies. Deeply invested in processes of reciprocal exchange, Leonardo’s work flows from a belief in collaborative leadership and artistic visioning.
Leonardo’s professional life began at Socrates (2005-2015) as its special events manager before expanding into the role of Socrates’ Director of Public Programs. Over 11 seasons, he envisioned and created new program initiatives and educational curriculum, including the development of the Park’s first workshop series dedicated to adults and teens and the implementation of Socrates’ first onsite and in-school high school-level, sculpture classes. His tenure was marked by collaboration with over 40 cultural and community organizations, leading to the establishment of the Park’s Healthy Living and Performance initiatives, as well as the tripling of the park’s educational offerings.
From 2015-2017, Leonardo served at the New Museum’s first Manager of School, Youth & Community Programs, developing programs and accommodations for specific audience groups, both those under the umbrella of school partnerships, designed for high school teachers and students, and new initiatives in the area of community engagement.
From 2018-2020, Leonardo acted as Pratt Institute’s inaugural School of Art Visiting Fellow, instigating dialogues amongst students, faculty, and staff, as well as others outside the Institute, to challenge ideas on community and belonging, while shaping possibilities of ethical community engagement.
And most recently, Leonardo served as Co-Director of the Brooklyn-based Recess, helping guide the organization’s continuous evolution as an engine of social change. Shaun joined Recess in 2016, initiating the art-based diversion program Assembly as its project and curricular lead, while also acting as the project’s first facilitator. Over the course of nearly 9 years, Shaun continued to expand his role, ultimately being invited to fill the organization’s first co-directorship with founder Allison Freedman Weisberg in 2021. And during the last almost four years, Shaun took on the effort of guiding Recess through the pandemic onto thriving both programmatically and fiscally. His time was dedicated to internally operationalizing care and accountability, while pushing experimentation within the org’s external-facing programming.
He is a Brooklyn-based artist from Queens. He received his MFA from the San Francisco Art Institute and is a recipient of support from Creative Capital, Guggenheim Social Practice, Art for Justice and A Blade of Grass. His work has been featured at The Guggenheim Museum, the High Line, New Museum, MASS MoCA and The Bronx Museum, and profiled in the New York Times and CNN. His first major public art commission, Between Four Freedoms, premiered at Four Freedoms Park Conservancy, in the fall of 2021. Shaun lives in Brooklyn with his wife and two daughters.
Tim Cynova, SPHR (he/him) is the COO/CHRO of WSS HR LABS, an HR and org design consultancy helping to reimagine workplaces where everyone can thrive. He is a certified Senior Professional in Human Resources (SPHR) and a trained mediator, and has served on the faculty of Minneapolis College of Art & Design, the Banff Centre for Arts & Creativity (Banff, Canada) and The New School (New York City) teaching courses in People-Centric Organizational Design, and Strategic HR. In 2021, he concluded a 12-year tenure leading Fractured Atlas, a $30M, entirely virtual non-profit technology company and the largest association of independent artists in the U.S., where he served in both the Chief Operating Officer and Co-CEO roles (part of a four-person, shared, non-hierarchical leadership team), and was deeply involved in its work to become an anti-racist, anti-oppressive organization since they made that commitment in 2013. Earlier in his career, Tim was the Executive Director of The Parsons Dance Company and of High 5 Tickets to the Arts in New York City, had a memorable stint with the Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra, was a one-time classical trombonist, musicologist, and for five years in his youth he delivered newspapers for the Evansville, Indiana Courier-Press. Learn more on LinkedIn.
Transcript
Tim Cynova:
Hi, I'm Tim Cynova and welcome to Work Shouldn't Suck, a podcast for thriving workplace practitioners.
Today, I have the rare treat of recording this episode on location. More specifically, I'm at Socrates Sculpture Park, a wonderful creative haven built on the site of a former landfill in the Astoria section of New York City.
As a bit of geographic orientation, Socrates is situated along the East River right across from Manhattan's East 85th Street. We can see Gracie Manchin from here, and outside the big orange welcoming gates of Socrates is a neighborhood gem, Château le Woof, the first people-friendly dog cafe in the United States.
The Noguchi Museum is two blocks south of here and the Astoria Ferry stops two blocks north. But Astoria geography isn't what we're going to discuss today, or not primarily what we're going to discuss today. I'm joined by the co-directors of Socrates Sculpture Park, Katie Dixon and Shaun Leonardo, to discuss the role of places like Socrates in society and cities and how that has evolved and changed over the years.
Given that they're also co-directors, we might explore their take on sharing leadership and decision making amid unprecedented times.
So let's get going. Katie and Shaun, welcome to the podcast.
Shaun Leonardo:
Thank you, Tim.
Katie Dixon:
Thanks Tim.
Tim Cynova:
As a way of grounding us in the conversation, might I invite you each to introduce yourself and the work you do? And Katie, wanna kick things off?
Katie Dixon:
My name's Katie Dixon. I am an administrator in the arts. I started out in architecture and I kind of winded my way to working at arts organizations over the years, and I love doing this work.
Tim Cynova:
Shaun?
Shaun Leonardo:
I have the privilege of being co-director alongside Katie Dixon. Though I've rejoined Socrates as of the fall of 2024, my history with the park goes back 20 years. Socrates was actually my first professional position. First as an event manager right out of grad school, and then later graduated onto Director of Public Programs. But to more, I think, philosophically answer your question, I identify first and foremost as artist, and I have always held pride in thinking about my institutional roles through the same lens as I do my practice.
Tim Cynova:
Shaun, you started to hint at this a little bit. I'm really curious what you both wanted to be when you grew up, because over your career arcs, you've worn many hats and continued to wear many hats. But back in the day, what did your young selves wanna be, and how has that led to these roles as Socrates?
Katie Dixon:
I always wanted to live in New York City. When I try to think about what I wanted to be, it's that. I grew up in a smallish town where everyone knew everyone. And I've somehow wound up in a very small neighborhood in New York City where everyone knows everyone. But I was always drawn to big cities and the arts and buildings and public places, and getting to be a part of the energy dynamism and excitement in cities.
We visited New York when I was in sixth grade and went to the Metropolitan Museum of Art. I don't know who decided to take a bunch of sixth graders from Murfreesboro, Tennessee to ride around in a bus to New York City, but it became my dream to return and I achieved it when I was 22.
Shaun Leonardo:
I didn't know that personal history. Thanks for sharing that. I am from Queens, so this is both home turf and a homecoming. I've always identified as an artist since my earliest memories. I think I was drawing out of comic books as my mom likes to recount from the age of six or seven. However, I never imagined in my artistic path that I would be excited by or gravitate towards a social practice or performance-based arts practice, which is much of my investment these days. I think in that, strangely enough, you know, I went to college and grad school for more traditional studio practices, and it was very much during my time at Socrates, and some of the experimentation in my practice around that same time that, I started to move more toward a social practice, and started to understand the types of activity and engagements that I was introducing while at Socrates in those early years that that was impacting and fueling my artistic practice in some unconscious ways.
Tim Cynova:
Why don't we take a moment to describe Socrates?
Katie Dixon:
Socrates is a public park that sits on the East River bordered by Vernon Boulevard and Costco. It's about five acres. It has become a park over time, but 40 years ago, it was a landfill that had been dumped on top of what were piers that had been dredged and created in former title marshland. The place that has become, has been made over the last several decades by community members here and artists working together to create a place to be together, clearing old tires, planting trees, getting together to watch movies, and it continues to be a place that people seek out.
I'd say it's a destination for people from all over New York, frankly, from all over the country and the world, but definitely from those who live within a few blocks as well. It's a destination and a haven.
Shaun Leonardo:
Formally, I think Katie and I would both describe it as the only NYC park that still to this day invites artists to create, fabricate, and exhibit works while on site. And that remains true, has been true for its entire history.
I think more informally, the way that we introduce the park is as an experiment, the ethos of learning while doing, which very much stems from our founder, Mark di Suvero’s legacy. But more importantly, this idea of Socrates is always being made that the artists working in public in full view with community as an experiment of possibility.
That is continuously evolving and changing what Socrates is and can be for its generations of people that find inspiration here.
Tim Cynova:
It's wonderful to live nearby. I was thinking about the days getting longer, which means the park gets to stay open later and it is coming alive in a way that isn't during the winter. But also during the winter, it's kind of a wonderful time to be in Socrates, to wander around and to see the installations change, see them against the backdrop of Manhattan, and to see the artists build the installations, create the thing, getting to talk to them, which I think is rare with a lot of places where you don't get to engage and get to know an artist over time and to see how people are using the park.
You mentioned Costco, the number of people who buy big pizzas at Costco and come to sit in Socrates – it's really a wonderful, vibrant place that's ever changing.
Shaun Leonardo:
I like to remind folks that Socrates, as an arts institution and a public park, is the most democratic experiment that I've ever come to know because of our responsibility to community, and therefore all the creative and public programming offerings that we make to our constituencies offers such a myriad of entry points to being here.
I want to emphasize this idea of being the experiment is in not only the experience of art, but what art catalyzes in regards to a sense of belonging. And so, whether you're coming here for kayaking, the gardens, to walk your dog, to be part of some of the sculpture workshops, performances, et cetera, et cetera, the art is unfolding whether you're conscious of it or not.
Katie Dixon:
We love Costco. It's a great example of, as Shaun is saying, the democratic experiment that we're running at Socrates in that so many places that are presenting art museums are consciously making big efforts to break down barriers and remove walls and make it easier for people to access art, artists, and what they have to offer.
We don't have walls at Socrates. We have a porous environment that's always free, that's always open and welcoming to anyone who wants to come, and that creates a different kind of responsibility for us as stewards of the park and of that experience. It creates very different dynamics from places that have doors and entry fees to what's possible and what can happen, and the kinds of encounters that you can have with artists, with your neighbors, with the people who you happen to run into, and the places made by those encounters, and by that doing and by that potential for belonging.
I think it's also one of the great things about New York City, it's possible here. To have that kind of place and to foster that kind of environment.
Tim Cynova:
Speaking of New York City, last December, you both co-authored a piece titled “Cultural Nonprofits Are the Unsung Stewards of New York City: Why These Organizations Deserve Our Support.”
We'll link to the article in the show notes, but can you sketch for listeners why you wrote that piece and perhaps how your thinking might have evolved since then?
Shaun Leonardo:
Thanks for the invitation to rethink through that piece. I can say, personally, December of last year was a very particular activation for many of us.
In terms of the uncertainty that continues into this year, let's be honest. I think for me, the context that is important in the co-authoring of that piece is this idea that when things seem to become more dire, somehow it is the places that offer most in the sense of respite, belonging, energetic release that are first overlooked.
And that was the piece of my experience, particularly in returning to Socrates, that I wanted to explore the how within the sociopolitical climate. A climate in which we need each other and these resources more than ever. I relate back to the experience of the pandemic very similarly, where this idea of finding creativity, a sense of belonging, a place that I can trust and cherish how those community oriented organizations, organizations are the first to be omitted from.
Katie Dixon:
Agreed. I think that that piece was an attempt at the time to highlight the necessity of a place like Socrates and the role that these places and the folks like us who steward them, the organizations that are committed and dedicated to keeping these third places of thriving. It's a necessity that that happens.
It's not an extra or an added-good or a nice-but-not-necessary. It is absolutely critical to a well-functioning society and to the ability of our neighbors, our fellow New Yorkers, our fellow citizens, to have the space to interact, to practice being human together. And to be able to fail at that, sometimes that requires space and it requires care, and it requires a kind of attention that is important and necessary and not to be taken for granted.
And we feel that a lot that's right that these places can be taken for granted
Shaun Leonardo:
And therefore it also requires multi-year funding, just to put a finer point. And I think if anything has shifted, there's a piece that Katie has offered in terms of. Our and our staffs, boards, community members, dedication to Socrates.
If anything has shifted since we co-authored that piece, I think it's the tone in which we express that dedication. I think much of what we are centered on are the aspects of our work that are essential, that through the lens of accountability to people and place, what must Socrates always stand for and rallying people around that.
Tim Cynova:
There's a piece I hear around things that you take for granted. We saw this with the pandemic. You didn't think about that thing until it disappeared, and I feel like there's a moment where there are systems and structures that people just thought were going to go on forever, and we've seen disruption to those.
I think about a space where a community can come together and enjoy and reflect and see things and how beauty and community changes when other parts of society are at risk.
Katie Dixon:
Here we are in mid-May 2025, four months into this new second presidency. The sense of uncertainty, the destabilization that we're feeling now, to me it feels very akin to the way the pandemic felt in terms of what you've just been referencing.
The sort of lack of support, the disappearing of structures and places and systems that we took for granted, frankly, that we thought would always be there. I'm feeling that in this moment. I think many of us in our sector, I think many of us in general are feeling that sense of uncertainty. To be able to have the consistency of returning to a place that has always been there is a privilege and is a reminder of the investment and the continued care and the continued attention and dedication that's required to sustain it.
Shaun Leonardo:
I'm glad you brought up the idea of attention too. The uniqueness of a place like Socrates in the context of uncertainty, in the context of being taken for granted, is that, for all we know, if Socrates Sculpture Park as a nonprofit were to disappear tomorrow, the park as an asset would continue to exist.
That may not be true, but potentially it is. The thing that's overlooked in that equation is what Katie is offering here is the dedication of artists, community members, staff, the believers that make manifest the mission of Socrates that without Socrates or the land couldn't be considered the place that it is.
In the same way, the park and what brings people to the park is not. Solely the fact of its existence. It's its continuous activation as a social experiment.
Tim Cynova:
You both mentioned nonprofit, multi-year funding, community park, existing without the nonprofit. For those listening, let's tease this apart a little bit because they might be thinking, well, it's a New York City Park that gets funding from the city.
Maybe explain what the relationship is and the important role that Socrates plays. Also how that was born out of community. It connects to community in a neighborhood that is rapidly changing from what it was when Socrates first came into existence.
Katie Dixon:
Socrates is on city land; has been on city land for a very long time.
It was originally part of the ports and ferry system when it was piers where ships would dock for refueling. It was still a part of that agency when the artisan community members asked for a dollar or a year lease from the city to clean it up and make something of it. After about 15 years of all of this work and investment, it became part of the park system because of the planting and trees, and it made more sense for it to then be part of the New York City Parks inventory.
But it has always been stewarded by a private organization, Socrates Sculpture Park, that raises the money necessary to do the activities that include maintaining the park, all of the work with artists and community members. The support from the city has varied in different ways over the years. We do receive some money from the Department of Cultural Affairs in support of our artist programs, namely our Artist Fellows program.
We have received support in the form of the construction of a new building. We opened our first building last year, which is the first permanent structure, so we have plumbing, bathrooms, and heating and cooling, so we can actually be in the park indoors year round. Which is a huge step forward after almost 40 years beyond that year over year, we are raising privately from individual donors, foundations, the monies that are required to maintain the activity, the opening and closing, the cutting in the lawn, the arborists for the trees.
All of the work that goes into what we do, we privately fundraise.
Shaun Leonardo:
And there's an aspect of your question, Tim, that you know we should address correctly is the orientation. To the park by newcomers. If you don't understand its legacy and in a highly gentrifying corridor, if you only understand Socrates as an NYC park and therefore a local amenity, just think about what that does to your orientation, to this place, but also the dynamic that you carry between yourself as.
Newer member of this community to those who have been here for much longer and who have had a direct relationship to making Socrates. There's a gap there. If you don't have an investment in making Socrates or continuing to hold Socrates within its history,
Tim Cynova:
How do you wrestle with all of that as an organization at that nexus point?
Shaun Leonardo:
The strategy that comes to mind has to do very much with our programming and in particular our curatorial program. It is a great interest of our curator, Kaitlin Garcia-Maestas, to utilize legacy as a jumping off point for inviting artists to think about the specificity of this place.
That becomes an instigation, that becomes a provocation that all of our community members are invited into. Outside of that, our community engagement model is that of deep relationship building with local organizations, with community members as a priority, and it's through that area of work that I think that you gain something special.
By that, I mean it would be very easy for us to empty ourselves out of the depth of programming that we currently do, it would be very easy to simply stage rock concerts and attempt to be relevant in that way. But we've never done that in our 40-year history. We have always understood our outreach and the ways in which we are activating the park through a sense of deep questioning of what it means to exist together in this place.
Katie Dixon:
You're also getting at the sort of durational aspect of our partnerships of the time that artists actually spend on site. Our curator, Kaitlin, who you mentioned, is selecting artists who are gonna spend months on site getting to know the place while they are also working on their personal expression, on their personal projects.
That is a kind of site specificity that is singular, but invites a kind of interaction that isn't fleeting and is similar to the way we work with other partners who come and do programming, who have been working with us for well over a decade. There's a rhythm and a cadence to our programming and our work that people come to expect.
There's the physical symbols of the gates that open and close with irregularity. The people who attend our space. James is a neighborhood superstar, maybe the most famous person in Astoria and is looked to as a community leader. I think someone who you meet fairly quickly if you're new to the park.
There are a lot of different ways that you can get oriented to what we're doing. I think it also travels by word of mouth and through the people who are our visitors and our community who we hear about. We certainly don't meet everyone by any stretch, but we hear about so many different encounters and understand the ripple effects of what goes on there.
Tim Cynova:
One of the fun things about living close to Socrates is being able to see the cycles that happen. The installs, a piece that changes over months as weather and just time changes it. And then the deinstalls, and then what's usually left is some really amazing grass that my dog loves to eat. She's very particular about the grass that's left around artworks that have been deinstalled.
Katie Dixon:
Special art grass.
Tim Cynova:
Yeah, high-end art grass. Our dog really loves that.
One of the fun things that I like to take visitors to the park to see is kind of the back lot of Mark's artwork that's hidden in that corner. Really a treasure trove of his artwork. When you bring people to the park and say, here's what we're working on, what's your tour typically like?
Shaun Leonardo:
Gosh, we could fill the hour. Just speaking about the upcoming programming, I'll try to be succinct and I'll pass it to you, Katie, to talk about some of the community programming and The Point.
Very quickly to share an anecdote that relates to your own. I used to also live in the neighborhood and one of my distinct favorite memories was opening up on a New Year's Eve. Where there was just a dump of snow. It was just covered with five feet of snow or something like that. I opened it up just because I was around. There was no pressure to that; although, we do pride ourselves on being open 365 days a year. And it was just the most magical experience, and I think I ultimately ended up sharing it with maybe three or four other people.
For that moment, being alone in the park with the experience of the works, having transformed so much amidst the snow is something that I'll never forget. Some of the most memorable moments for me, and I think for a lot of folks, is the rediscovery of artworks as the elements change.
Now, in relation to this summer, we have our healthy living programming rolling out that consists of meditation and yoga. We have a number of different community engaged projects that are beginning to be activated by our artists in iterative moments. So you'll continuously see artists experiment with performance and other types of interactions in the park. We have our artists coming in on site currently, very much now and into the next months, making and experimenting materially and otherwise on.
That they are responding to is entitled Uprooted. And it explores both the ecological and human experience of interrogating when rooting something is not only necessary, but ultimately a benefit to the ecological system and when is it not. When is it more of an imposition? And I think folks who are gonna witness those sculptures develop in the park at different rates, ultimately be celebrated in September for one culminating opening.
Katie Dixon:
We have longtime partners, Ballet Folklorico, who are returning with Guelaguetza this year. It's always an excellent time in the park, full day last Sunday in July. We have the Met Opera returning. We’re the Queens site where they do their outer borough presentations every year, and that's gonna be great. also in June.
And you hinted at something. We actually have a very exciting new project that we're working on. We are working to make that area of the park that has been a maintenance and storage area that you referenced with Mark di Suvero works. Open to the public by the fall of 2026 and in honor of our 40th anniversary, we are working to make that accessible and landscaped and have new paths and to create a long-term exhibition of five of the works that are there.
It is also one of our favorite parts of the park and we're excited that we're gonna open it up and share it. It's part of work that we've been doing. Shaun and I have been working on: How we chart the future of Socrates by taking inspiration from its founding and from its past and from the spirit in which it was founded, which we've been talking about with you during this podcast.
Tim Cynova:
That's very exciting! I'm sure the grass around the sculptures will be amazing as well.
Katie Dixon:
The best super grass in the park.
Shaun Leonardo:
Yeah, super edible.
Tim Cynova:
I want to ask you both about your co-directorship model. It's a topic that we cover a lot on the podcast, various ways that people can share decision making, share power, share influence, and leadership.
What's your variety look like, how did it come to be, and how practically do you just divvy up what needs to be done as codirectors?
Shaun Leonardo:
It was really important to Katie and I especially as it still feels very young in the co-directorship that there be a complete overlap. I am coming from another co-directorship at an organization named Recess, and I really advocate for co-directorship to be framed as a learning opportunity.
And so being very open and transparent as to where you need to lean on the other individual's strengths in a supportive role and therefore learning role and vice versa. I think that has been the great experiment of co-directors at best, Socrates, particularly at a phase in which we are entering organizational experimentation, both in its structure and its programmatic focus.
What it was born out of was actually much more organic than anything that I'm sharing. I was in a transitional mode from my last nonprofit and as a board member of Socrates and someone that held Socrates very close to my heart and had a long history with the park. I was working very closely with Katie as a board member in developing a particular concept note, and I just became really, not only impressed, but felt compelled to contribute to this ideation phase and the ways in which future Socrates could be conceived.
And it was during that summer of going back, the ways that a co-director ship was then emerging out of that document that I started to say to myself, hmm, maybe there's an opening here for my return. And then when Katie first suggested it to the board as a model, a working model for the organization, at least in the interim, I threw my hat in the ring.
Katie Dixon:
Yeah, it was great. It came about very organically and incredibly valuable experience getting to work with Shaun as a board member. I stepped in as the interim almost two years ago in April of 2023. Working through with the board what the next phase of the organization could be and going over options.
I was very excited about the possibilities here and what I was learning about the history and about the incredible community activism and artists led activism here. The partnership with Shaun started fairly early and then very organically sort of flowed into being able to work together formally as co-directors.
And it continues to evolve, and I think as a model for organizations in experimentation and trying to find their way as we are in a moment of supreme uncertainty, still in the long tail of COVID, and another moment of incredible uncertainty, the ability to have a peer working at this level and sharing information.
As Shaun said, we have complete overlap, meaning we do everything together. Right now, we're still in the mode of we go to all the meetings, we get copied on everything, so we really are working in total partnership. We practically end up doing things out as the task gets executed, but right now it's been very organic and as Shaun said, a really great learning experience.
I think it's a great way for organizations to experiment with leadership and with coming up with ways forward for your organization.
Tim Cynova:
That's so resonant having been a part of a co-leadership model as well. But that word experiment, experimentation, right, this might not last forever. We're trying some things, seeing how it works differently, maybe what fits us better, what doesn't, how it can be infused in the organization in different ways.
It feels so aligned, much more aligned with the creative sector. Those of us who were artists, who are still artists who often are handed a book about like, here's how you run a nonprofit. We're like, that's essentially how you run the military. There's just like 10 of us. Why do we run it that way? How do you make a decision?
And so it feels like it's a very tangible way to be like, okay, if we reinvented this right now for us right now in this moment, what do we want? What do we not want? And much like with creative work. It's evolving. You're trying stuff out in the studio and having talked to other organizations that have co-leadership models, they're like, we have this model of improvisation in the dance studio.
We just don't use it when it comes to how we run the organization. What if we took that model and used it there? It's so exciting to hear about these experiments and we're like, that works right now, but it might not work forever. And also this moment you both highlighted, I think it's something that everyone I've talked to who's been in these models has mentioned. What's going on in the world right now? Having someone who understands exactly what's happening to have that partner makes it just a more enjoyable experience, but something that comes out of that, that wouldn't necessarily in a more quote unquote traditional model.
Shaun Leonardo:
One of the great benefits of entering into the directorship, as I saw it when we were first entering into the co-directorship, is that there seemed to be this motivation of wide collaboration across staff members and therefore departments. And I think when that becomes true for an organization there is more attending to the co-directorship, allows for more interstitial work to hold a collaboration, and I think that has certainly proven to be true at Socrates. You need more than one individual, more than one mind, more than one person's energies to bring a collaborative spirit together amongst staff.
Now as it relates to any organization, particularly in the context of now, you said more fun, and I think that's true. I think it's just fairer as well. The demands are so increasingly intense. We all thought we were going through it during the pandemic and thought we would barely survive out of that moment. But in terms of bringing in equity and fairness and understanding amongst staff organizational shape, the demands of programmatic outreach and visibility, ambition, fundraising. It's just all too much for one person.
Katie Dixon:
No matter the size of the organization.
Shaun Leonardo:
No matter the size.
Katie Dixon:
And I think that I do a better job in partnership. As you were saying, leading a collaborative team by first collaborating is a necessary component. I really value being able to bounce ideas off, being able to talk something through before being in the middle of presenting it or having to defend it in front of a lot of people. And it also slows you down a little bit, which I appreciate. As Shaun said, it's too big of a job to be at that fulcrum point, managing staff and working with the board to not have a peer who is experiencing and also responsible for and accountable for the things that you are.
Tim Cynova:
No surprise here, our time has flown by. And so many other things we could dive into discussing. As we prepare to land the plan on our conversation today, where do you each wanna land it?
Katie Dixon:
I want to express some gratitude for this conversation and for the opportunity to reflect on the partnership that Shaun and I have been working on together and my gratitude for that partnership.
I think that getting to serve as the interim director at Socrates brought me a ton of joy right off the bat, and being able to extend my time and to get to enter into this experiment and learning opportunity with Shaun and with the incredible staff that we're working with has been a real gift to me, and I'm really, really grateful to get to be here.
Shaun Leonardo:
I echo that, much appreciation for the time to reflect and also to speak about my partnership with Katie. I think the one thing that I wanna share or leave listeners with is something that Katie and I have been really kind of articulating to folks quite a bit in the last few days, which is the idea of Socrates is not something you can really talk about.
You kind of have to experience it in person. I have a very personal resonance with this place, with Mark our founder, with all the people that have crossed through and my life and practice and professional career because of this place, and those vibrations you can only pick up when you're standing on our grass.
Tim Cynova:
An invitation for listeners. Katie and Shaun, thank you so much for your time today, for your insights. Thank you to you and the team for creating such a wonderful space and a welcoming space for the community, and thanks so much for being on the podcast.
Shaun Leonardo:
Thanks, Tim.
Katie Dixon:
Thank you, Tim.
Tim Cynova:
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